Peter Nathan Is Going with Living Church of God

During a Question and Answer session after Sabbath services, February 15, 2014, which I viewed online, Mr. Peter Nathan said that he expects to be joining Living Church of God as an employed minister as soon as arrangements are finalized. He will be supervising congregations in all Africa and probably teaching at Living University, LCG's college. He hopes to move to LCG and the Charlotte, N.C. area around the end of March and would like to be in Africa for Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread. Charlotte is the headquarters location for LCG.

Mr. Nathan has been concerned about the Church he pastored in Kenya during his last several years in COGaic. This gives him the opportunity to serve ministers and members in Kenya more effectively (because LCG has certain government permissions in Kenya that COGaic has not had) and at the same time supervise more congregations in the rest of Africa.

Mr. Nathan said that he has always had a good relationship with Dr. Meredith during the times he has known and worked with him in Worldwide, and he pointed out that God seems to have blessed Living Church of God in doing God's work, even in proportion to size, more than COGaic.

The ministry of COGFC will work out who will take care of Mr. Nathan's responsibilities in COGFC.

I view this as a positive development and I think it will work out well for God's Church as a whole.

It was not stated, but I expect that the entire question and answer session will be posted on COGFC's "The Father's Call" website in the next day or two, in their "Messages" page where they have recorded sermons and Bible studies. The questions were submitted in advance via email. Mr. Nathan handled the entire session (about an hour, give or take), and most of it had to do with his joining LCG. Here is a link to the page where I expect the question and answer audio recording to appear:
http://thefatherscall.org/messages.html

Look to the bottom of the page for a question and answer session or message from Peter Nathan dated February 15, 2014. I may post a link here to the actual audio file when it becomes available.


Here are links to related posts in this blog about Mr. Nathan and the other ministers and members leaving COGaic, what I have referred to as COGFC:

"Peter Nathan and Other Ministers Leaving Church of God, an International Community?", dated December 28, 2013, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2013/12/peter-nathan-and-other-ministers.html

"New Website of Ministers Leaving COGaic", dated January 4, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/new-website-of-ministers-leaving-cogai.html

"New Church Coming out of COGaic and 'Mutual Submission' ", dated January 5, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/new-church-coming-out-of-cogaic-and.html

" 'Beam in the Eye', and Preaching the Gospel to the World", dated January 14, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/beam-in-eye-and-preaching-gospel-to.html

"Decision Time for Ex-COGaic Ministers and Brethren - Where Will they Stand?", dated January 17, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/decision-time-for-ex-cogaic-ministers.html

"Will the Nine 'Mutually Submit' to Some among the Fifty?", dated January 22, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/will-nine-mutually-submit-to-some-among.html

"What Is Your Church Identity?", dated January 26, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/what-is-your-church-identity.html

"Fasting to Know God's Will and Isaiah 58:6-8", dated February 6, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/02/fasting-to-know-gods-will-and-isaiah.html

Has God Made the Church an "Ezekiel Watchman" for Israel?

Most in the Church of God are familiar with Ezekiel 3:16-21. I will quote the whole passage later in this post, but notice just this part: "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: When I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand" (Ezekiel 3:17-18).

This has been applied to the Church by most, such as myself, who are in favor of preaching the gospel to the world. But some might object and say, "God has not made the Church a watchman."

In this post I want to show, from the Bible, that God has made the Church of God a watchman for Israel, and the Ezekiel warning that the blood of the people will be on our heads applies to us if we do not warn the English speaking nations about the tribulation to come upon them if they do not repent of their sins.

There are two things, in combination, that make us a watchman for modern Israel, those nations such as the United States and Great Britain that will go through the tribulation. Those two things are God's word, the Bible, and circumstances.

God's word teaches certain principles of behavior, a way of life, that requires that we warn people when we see they are in danger and they do not know it. And the circumstances we find ourselves in today require that we give our nations a warning. Those circumstances are simply that we know from Bible prophecy that they are in danger and heading for destruction, but they don't.

What are the scriptures that teach this principle?

First, there is the general principle that we love our neighbor as ourself. "Jesus said to him, ' "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets' " (Matthew 22:37-40). This general principle also includes doing unto others as we would want them to do to us if we were in their circumstances. "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 7:12). Obviously, if you were in danger, but didn't know it, you would want someone to warn you.

This is more than just loving those in the Church of God, but includes loving those in the world, as God set the example. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). This is further illustrated in a parable. "And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, 'Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?' He said to him, 'What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?' So he answered and said, ' "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind," and "your neighbor as yourself." ' And He said to him, 'You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.' But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, 'And who is my neighbor?' Then Jesus answered and said: 'A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.' So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?' And he said, 'He who showed mercy on him.' Then Jesus said to him, 'Go and do likewise" (Luke 10:25-37).

Notice, there is no indication of the nationality of the man who fell among robbers, whether he was an Israelite or a pagan, nor is there any indication of whether he was righteous or wicked, only that he was in trouble and needed help. And remember, Jesus gave this parable to answer the question, "Who is my neighbor?". We, in the Church, might also ask, "Who is my neighbor?", thinking that perhaps our neighbors are only the brethren in the Church, but the teaching of this parable is that our neighbors are those we come into contact with, those we are able to help, regardless of who they are. The command to love our neighbors as ourselves requires us to love the people of the world, those outside the Church of God, as well as the brethren in the Church.

God also gives us a more specific application of this love, that of holding back those headed towards disaster: "Deliver those who are drawn toward death, and hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, 'Surely we did not know this,' does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?" (Proverbs 24:11-12).

Sometimes the only way you can hold someone back from disaster is to warn them, as with our nations. We cannot force the American and British people to stop sinning, but we can warn them about the consequences.

Notice that in verse 12 of the above quote, the obligation to deliver those drawn towards death is tied to the knowledge of the one this passage is addressed to. We cannot make the excuse to God, we didn't warn the people because we didn't know this disaster was coming. If we try that excuse, God will bring the fruits of our decision upon our own heads. "If you say, 'Surely we did not know this,' does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?" (Proverbs 24:12).

We are to live by every word of God (Matthew 4:4). This instruction or command in Proverbs 24:11-12 has authority. We must do it.

So the general principle is, we love our neighbors, even those outside the Church of God, and we express love by warning those who need a warning.

God Himself sets the example. I could fill up a book with all the warnings God gives in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. God warned Adam of the consequences of taking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He didn't just say, don't eat if it. He also said, if you eat of it, you will die (Genesis 2:16-17). Likewise we should tell our nations, if you continue in sin, you will suffer and die in the tribulation. The last words of the Bible in Revelation are a warning against those who add or subtract from the book of this prophecy (Revelation 22:18-19), and that warning tells what those consequences are. It is God's nature to express love by giving warnings, and we should do the same.

I said before, we are made a watchman by a combination of scriptures and circumstances. The scriptures mandate, as an application of God's law requiring us to love our neighbors as ourselves, that we warn those who need a warning. Those scriptures are the ones I have quoted, namely, Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, and Proverbs 24:11-12.

What are the circumstances, which combined with God's word and God's law make us the watchman for Israel?

The circumstances are simply that we know the truth and the world doesn't. God has given us, in the Church of God, the knowledge that makes it possible for us to give the warning. No one else has this knowledge. If we don't give the warning, no one else will because no one else knows the truth.

We know that the United States, Britain, Canada, Australia, and other English speaking nations will go through the tribulation. We know what that tribulation will be like. We know why it will happen, that it will happen as a punishment for sin. And we know what those sins are and what our nations need to repent of. God has given us this precious knowledge, not just to save our own skins, but to give a warning to others who do not have this gift of knowledge. We are given the gift so we can share it.

That is what makes us the watchman for Israel. And the Ezekiel warning therefor applies to us.

The "Ezekiel warning" is really a two-fold warning. As applied to the nations of Israel, it is a warning to repent of sin or face the tribulation. But as applied to the Church, to us personally and collectively, it is a warning to deliver the warning to the nations or God will put the blood of the people on our heads. That is figurative language to tell us, God will hold us guilty if we do not deliver the warning. So the Ezekiel warning is a warning for the nations, but a warning for us too.

Also, notice that this warning, for us who have the knowledge, is in the passage I quoted from Proverbs. Not only does God tell us to hold back those stumbling to the slaughter, but he gives a somewhat veiled warning that there will be consequences for us if we don't: "And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?"

So actually, the warning to us in Ezekiel is just an expansion of what Proverbs 24:11-12 is telling us. Ezekiel 3 spells God's warning out in more detail than Proverbs 24:11-12, but it is saying the same thing.

Here is the whole passage in Ezekiel 3 which I quoted a part of earlier: "Now it came to pass at the end of seven days that the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 'Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: When I say to the wicked, "You shall surely die," and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul' " (Ezekiel 3:16-21).

Ezekiel was told to warn the house of Israel, not just the house of Judah. But at the time this was written, the house of Israel had gone into captivity long before Ezekiel received this vision. Thus, it was given to Ezekiel for the purpose of including it in the Bible for our sakes, so we have the message and the warning. In Ezekiel chapter 3, God is speaking directly to the Church of God today.

Therefore, God has made the Church of God the watchman for Israel, to give the warning of the tribulation to come. God has done that by teaching us to warn those who need a warning. And He has done it by giving us the knowledge we need to give that warning. The third chapter of Ezekiel tells us that God will hold us responsible, and guilty, if we do not deliver the warning. And Proverbs 24:11-12 also tells us the same thing, in a more general way.

Some might think the warning has already been completely given by Mr. Armstrong. That is ridiculous. Definitely, Mr. Armstrong did his part and warned millions. But there is still much work to do. The number of people alive today, and the number that will be alive when the tribulation starts, who heard and remember Mr. Armstrong giving that warning, is a very small percentage of all Israel. Most people in our nations have never heard that warning, and it is our job to warn them, now and between now and the time the tribulation begins. Mr. Armstrong got us started with that. He taught us the truth and he set the example. He did what he was able to do in his lifetime. Now it is our responsibility to finish the job.

And the blood of the people will be on our heads if we do not do it.


Here are links to related chapters or sections in Preaching the Gospel:

CHAPTER 3 - THE EZEKIEL WARNING

Is the Church Commissioned to Preach the Gospel to the World?, Chapter 5

Book Introduction

The Church, Chapter 4

The Importance of the Identity of Israel Doctrine

Most in the Church of God are familiar with the teaching that the lost ten tribes of Israel are the English speaking nations like the United States and Great Britain, plus some other European countries such as France, Norway, Ireland, etc. We have been taught that the United States is Manasseh and that Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are Ephraim, the two sons of Joseph. Joseph was the son of Jacob who was also called Israel. It is upon Israel the the soon coming great tribulation will primarily fall (Jeremiah 30:7).

Some call this doctrine, "British Israelism", some call it, "the Israel in prophecy doctrine". I like to call it, "the identity of Israel doctrine".

Whatever it is called, it was taught by Mr. Armstrong from the beginning of the Philadelphia era of the Church. It may be best known from Mr. Armstrong's book, The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy.

During the time Mr. Tkach was changing doctrine after the death of Mr. Armstrong, during the decade of 1987 to 1996, Mr. Tkach and other headquarters ministers in Worldwide began to minimize the importance of this doctrine. Before it was taught to be false, they taught that it was not important. "It has nothing to do with salvation", they said.

I want to show in this post several reasons why this doctrine is very important, sometimes even for salvation. These are not necessarily the only reasons, but for me they are powerful ones.

It has been and continues to be important for my salvation, so I am speaking from personal experience.

Reason number one why this doctrine is important: The prophecies about the sons of Joseph and about King David's dynasty that have been fulfilled in the English speaking nations are one of the major proofs that God has inspired the Bible and that the Bible is God's word.

How important for salvation is it to know that God, the Creator of mankind and the universe, speaks to us through the Bible?

When I first came into contact with the Plain Truth Magazine when I was eighteen years old, I was challenged to prove whether God exists or not. That was not hard. I knew enough about science to see God's hand in the creation of the universe. And I knew that evolution cannot explain human consciousness. I was able to prove, logically, that God exists.

But it is a long step from knowing that a Creator exists to knowing that He inspired the Bible and that the Bible is more than just a collection of human literature.

So the next step was to try to prove if the Bible was inspired by God.

With the help of the Church's literature, I studied prophecy in the Bible to see if fulfilled prophecy might prove that a God who is able to know the future inspired those prophecies. To make a long story short, I found two major cases of fulfilled prophecy that proved, for me, that the Bible is God speaking. One is the prophecy in Daniel that at the time of the end men would run to and fro and knowledge would increase (Daniel 12:4). That, combined with the Bible's teaching of the 7,000 year plan of God, pointed to our time today when transportation and knowledge would vastly increase. And that has been fulfilled exactly as predicted.

By itself, that might be just coincidence.

But the second case is the collection of prophecies concerning the sons of Joseph and the royal line of David. By studying the Bible and history, I was able to prove that those prophecies were fulfilled in a way that I could not reasonably explain as coincidence.

Combined with the prophecy in Daniel, this was more than I could explain as coincidence, and was for me conclusive proof that the Bible is God speaking.

The third step for me did not involve research or study. It was a simple choice. I had to choose whether to believe God, or not. In other words, I knew, by logical proof, that God exists and that He speaks to me through the Bible. But that, by itself does not prove that the Bible is true, only that it is God speaking. In order to know that it is true, I had to take the next step, choose to believe what God says. I had to make a decision whether or not to trust God that He will always tell the truth in the Bible and never lie. So I mulled it over in my mind, and then I made a commitment, to God and to myself, that I will always and unconditionally believe what God says.

That was the beginning of my faith that led to repentance, baptism, and conversion.

Thus, the identity of Israel doctrine was important for my salvation, for without the proof of the inspiration of the Bible that this doctrine supplies, how could I have faith that Jesus Christ ever even existed, much less know and understand all of the doctrines of the Bible that are required for salvation?

Reason number two why this doctrine is important: This doctrine is vital for understanding the work the Church of God needs to be doing in these end times. The knowledge of who Israel is today with the understanding of God's 7,000 year plan for mankind, along with specific prophecies about the tribulation to come, helps us understand the need and the focus for warning our nations about the tribulation to come, what can be called, "the Ezekiel warning". The Ezekiel warning is important enough to God that He says the blood of the people will be on our heads if we do not warn them. (In the near future, probably in my next post, I will show from the Bible that God has made the Church of God today the Ezekiel watchman.)

Our knowledge of the identity of Israel helps us understand that in a few short years the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and several other nations will go through the worst time of suffering, trouble, and death that has ever occurred on the earth, and that this will happen as punishment for our collective and individual sins.

We are able to understand that we need to give a warning. We understand who the warning is for. We understand what the warning is about, that is, the exact nature of the disaster that is coming. And we understand the reasons for it, the sins of our nations. We also understand what the people have to do to repent and escape the punishment, what they need to do to turn from their sins. All this understanding is made possible by the knowledge of who Israel is and the knowledge of how end time prophecies apply to Israel.

That knowledge gives the Church the ability to deliver a warning. It is not the only thing we need. We also need the means to do it (God's help and power, wisdom, time, money, technology - whatever). But at least we have the knowledge of what needs to be done. And we do have the means to do it at least on a small scale. We hope and pray that God will open the doors to give us greater power to reach more people - nevertheless, we can, and are, doing something now. Several Church of God fellowships are delivering that warning, and every month that goes by, more and more people are hearing the warning.

Why is that warning important?

This time is unique in human history because, for the first time, much or most of the first generation in the millennium has already been born. The people that Christ and the resurrected saints will work with are alive today, most of them probably. That first generation in the millennium will remember today. They will remember living in the last days of our material prosperity before our nations are struck. They will remember the agony of the tribulation. And they will remember if God was fair to give them a warning, through the Church, BEFORE the tribulation began so they had a chance to heed the warning and escape the punishment.

In the millennium, would you like to work with people who feel God was unfair because they never had a warning? Would you like to explain why you did not support a warning? Or would you rather work with people who remember hearing the warning, but they also remember that they were responsible for ignoring the warning? Which kind of people would be easier to work with? Which would be more ready for repentance and conversion? Which would be more teachable and ready to become a model nation for the world to follow?

We can give that warning now, and it is the doctrine of the identity of Israel and the prophecies about Israel that enable us to give that warning.

Reason number three why this doctrine is important: It is important for preaching the gospel, making disciples, and bring new members into the Church of God and baptizing them.

This reason actually relates to reason number one, but from a different angle.

I put reason number one on a personal level, showing why it was important for my salvation and can be important for the salvation of others because it proves that the Bible is God speaking. I could never have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior if I did not know that the Bible accounts about Him are true, and I could never have known that the Bible was trustworthy without proving the inspiration of the Bible by the fulfilled prophecies about the sons of Joseph and the line of David.

But also, from the point of view of preaching the gospel, consider what we are saying to people when we preach the gospel.

We are asking people to give up their traditions. We are asking them to give up Sunday, give up the trinity, give up the immortal soul doctrine, give up Christmas and Easter, and give up believing that their traditional church and their ministers are a true church and true ministers of God. In some cases, we are asking them to give up their friends, their wives or husbands, their whole families, and their jobs. That is a lot.

We are even asking them to give up bacon and eggs for breakfast.

The only way they can do that is to believe the Bible more than their traditions, their parents, their churches, their ministers, and their own opinions.

And how hard will that be without proof that God inspired the Bible?

Even with that proof, it is not easy.

We need to understand and teach the truth about Israel and end-time prophecy as part of our effort to preach the gospel so that people can learn, by the fulfillment of those prophecies, to trust the Bible, and then trusting the Bible, be willing to give up their old beliefs and practices and believe and live by the truth.

Mr. Armstrong's book, The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy, was probably the most effective vehicle for preaching the gospel of any one book or booklet or article published by the Worldwide Church of God.

For these and other reasons, the knowledge of who Israel is and what is prophecied for Israel just ahead is vital to the work of the Church of God today.


Here are links to related chapters or sections in Preaching the Gospel:

Why this Subject Is Important, Chapter 1 - The United States and Britain in Prophecy

Fasting to Know God's Will and Isaiah 58:6-8

Ministers and members of Church of God, a Family Community (COGFC) fasted last Sabbath for the purpose of seeking God's will for themselves.

It is good to fast to know God's will, to humble the self, to become responsive to God's correction.

Several weeks ago, prior to this fast, nine leading ministers of COGFC met for a 3-day conference. During that conference certain decisions were made, and COGFC has held to those decisions till now.

Minor decisions were made, such as the decision to set up a website, and similar things. But two major decisions were made, decisions of the utmost importance.

A decision was made at that time not to immediately adopt the model of governance practiced and taught by Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong, but to seek a new model of governance, to break new ground. Thus we see today, several weeks after that conference, a functioning Church with a ministry, members, and Sabbath services, and with an arrangement for collecting the tithes of the members and paying ministers' salaries, but no one man in charge, as leader under Christ, over the rest of the organization, as we had with Mr. Armstrong when he was alive.

Another decision was made in that conference not to immediately begin preaching the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel, even on a small scale at first, but to focus on feeding the flock only, for an indefinite period of time.

Last Sabbath, Mr. Brian Orchard gave a sermon on fasting and on seeking God's will.

When we seek God's will, I think it is best to seek His will in everything, not just the things we have questions about or think we do not know. In other words, we may have questions, things we do not understand, things which puzzle us and prompt us to seek God's direction, "Where do we go from here?". We may feel lost about certain issues and feel the need for God's instruction and guidance. That may prompt us to fast so we can be humble and responsive to God's direction so He can guide our way. All that is good.

But in seeking God's will, we must not close our minds to correction God may give us, through the Bible and through His Holy Spirit, correcting decisions we have already made. It is not enough to go to God and say, "Well, we have been able to make decisions about these two things, but we need Your guidance about this third thing because we don't have an answer, but don't correct us in the things we have already decided because our minds are made up about that and we are sure we are right." That would be the wrong approach, wouldn't it? Rather, we must seek to have minds that are open to God's correction on any subject, even things we think we know about and have already made up our minds about. We must be willing to change, to admit mistakes, as God corrects us and shows us that we are wrong and that we have made bad decisions, even recent bad decisions.

In my opinion, the decision to postpone obedience to God's command to preach the gospel indefinitely may be a mistake, and though I have given my reasons in prior posts, I will summarize some of them here. Perhaps it is true that the brethren need a short period of re-education and preparation before they will be prepared to support the preaching of the gospel. A certain amount of time may be required to make decisions about how to preach the gospel. I only hope that period of time will not be too long. I think the ministers in COGFC are probably sincere in saying that they want to preach the gospel to the world. I hope they will follow up their good intentions with action as soon as possible.

There is an idea that the brethren of COGFC need a period of preparation, of listening to sermons about Israel in prophecy, about the importance of preaching the gospel, about handling relationship problems, about drawing closer to God, BEFORE giving them the opportunity to participate in preaching the gospel to the world as God commands the Church. And during this time, while brethren in Living Church of God and various other groups are blessed with the opportunity to share the truth of God with the world and to obey God's command to give a warning, this blessing is withheld from COGFC brethren for an indefinite period of time. Even COGaic brethren are able to support the preaching of the gospel, though on a small scale, but not COGFC brethren. COGFC has existed for about a month and a half, and during this time Mr. Hulme has done more to preach the gospel to the world than the new group that came out of COGaic, not just because COGFC is small and is a young, recently formed group, but also because COGFC has not even begun to preach the gospel to the world, and to date they have given no clue as to when they will begin. As far as anything they have said goes (that I know of), it could be fifty years before they start to preach the gospel to the world.

And there has not been a glimmer of light in any message or teaching on their website concerning any date when this will change. No domains have been purchased for preaching to the public, no booklets started, no definite plans made, no inquiries about radio time or Internet radio time and costs. Nothing but vague promises that it is important to be a light to the world. Words but no action. This worries me.

Yet, it is possible that there may be thinking, planning, and much prayer in the background in preparation for preaching the gospel. I hope there is. It is too soon to be discouraged, I think. If COGFC begins to take action to preach the gospel to the world in the near future, how wonderful that will be. But if they do not, how ironic it would be if some members left COGaic to follow COGFC because they were unhappy with Mr. Hulme's slow pace of preaching the gospel to the world. They will have transferred from a slow-moving freight train, hoping to find an express train, and they would find themselves in a train that is standing still and is in no hurry to leave the station.

Those members would have left COGaic because they took seriously God's warning about blood guilt if they did not warn Israel about the coming tribulation (Proverbs 24:11, Ezekiel 3:16-21, 33:1-9), and now are they to find that they are in even more danger of blood guilt because they are doing less than they were doing before?

COGFC ministers feel a strong need to heal the flock. But for that very purpose, it is essential that they do not delay preaching the gospel to the world for very long. You will never have true healing of the Church without preaching the gospel to the world.

Some of these ministers may feel that the brethren need a long time of preparation before COGFC can preach the gospel effectively. The fallacy in this is the idea that this time of preparation requires only hearing, not doing. But we learn by doing, not just hearing. Church of the Great God is a perfect test case to show that feeding the flock only does NOT prepare a Church for preaching the gospel to the world, as I pointed out in a previous post. COGFC should not repeat that mistake. For all that COGFC ministers are saying about the need to draw close to God and the brethren, to have healing within the Church before going to the world, was said by CGG when they made the same decision years ago not to give a priority to preaching the gospel to the world. The words may be different, but the human reasoning is the same.

Preaching the gospel helps build character and spiritual harmony in a Church of God fellowship because it is a joint work, a common mission and effort that everyone can participate in, and it has an outward focus, to help others. When you feed the flock only, but do not preach the gospel at the same time, you are teaching an inward focus, whether you want to or not. You might think that is the way to heal the Church, but it isn't going to work.

When you teach the brethren the importance of preaching the gospel with words, but are not doing it with action, you are not practicing what you preach. You are saying one thing with your mouth, but something else with your actions. You are teaching the brethren, by your actions, that you really don't think preaching the gospel to the world is important no matter what you say. You are like a parent who tells his child, don't smoke, yet the parent smokes. Or maybe the parent tells his child, don't smoke, and I am going to quit smoking in a few months, but right now I can't stop. What does that tell the child?

The way to draw closer to God is by obeying His voice in everything, not picking and choosing what to obey now and what not to obey now, but maybe obey later. "To obey is better than sacrifice" (1 Samuel 15:22). "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20). We should have a sense of urgency about obeying God rather than saying, "Now is not the time".

Preaching the gospel is something that can be started now, or soon.  Then as the Church grows closer to God, God can bless the preaching of the gospel more and more. Healing the Church and preaching the gospel should be done at the same time, because one helps the other. Once you start preaching the gospel, members will have an added motivation to reconcile with each other and draw closer to God, so that God will hear their prayers for the success of the radio program, or the pay-per-click advertising campaign, or whatever form preaching the gospel takes. You are trying to stand on one leg if you only do one part of the two-fold commission. It will take longer and with less chance of success to try to build unity, to reconcile with each other and with God, if you are not preaching the gospel to the world at the same time. In fact, it may be impossible to really reconcile with God and the brethren without at the same time preaching the gospel to the world.

Praying for the success of the work of preaching the gospel, contributing tithes and offerings for that purpose, participating where appropriate, welcoming new people when they come in the door, hearing news of the work in announcements each Sabbath - all these things are absolutely vital for the spiritual health of any Church of God fellowship or congregation. If you think you can have a healthy reconciliation with God and between members without preaching the gospel, I think you are deluding yourself.

There is nothing I find in the Bible that indicates God ever intended the Church of God to function in a healthy way by only feeding the flock but not preaching the gospel to the world, not even for a few months.

As a practical matter, many of those members and ministers who are most useful for preaching the gospel, who understand the need and have the most zeal and enthusiasm for it, will likely be driven away in the next several months, and you won't easily get them back later when you need them. COGFC is being judged, not only by God, but by brethren, in COGFC right now, in COGaic, and in the whole scattered Church of God. Brethren have to judge the decisions the ministers make because God holds the brethren responsible for the decisions the brethren make about where to attend and who to support with tithes. And those brethren are making decisions right now and will make decisions based on what COGFC is doing right now and will be doing in the next few months.

In other words, the way you are starting out, good or bad, is the way you are likely to keep going. You are known by your fruits from day one.

Six months from now, COGFC may want to start preaching the gospel to the world, but they may find that they have lost much of their base for doing so. Those who are most zealous for preaching the gospel won't wait - they will go elsewhere, because they regard preaching the gospel as a point of God's word and law they must obey. They do not want the blood of the people hanging over their heads. Those who will be left may be those who never had much enthusiasm for preaching the gospel to begin with, and you are not going to change them. You will be trying to preach the gospel with ministers and members who do not have the stomach for it.

Right now, COGFC probably has a number of ministers and members who have fire in their bellies for preaching the gospel to the world. They can be a core of supporters whose enthusiasm can spread. You probably won't have that in six months if you don't start preaching the gospel now (or soon).

COGFC is taking shape according to which ministers and members are choosing to be part of COGFC and which ones are choosing not to be part. That is a continuous process that takes place as each individual member and family makes the choice, do I go with COGFC? If I am with COGFC now, do I stay or do I leave? These ministers and members are making their decisions based in part by what they see COGFC actually doing from the first day it came into existence. Postponing the preaching of the gospel will shape the kind of membership you will have.

Preaching the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel is a command from God. I do not think COGFC will win God's favor by postponing it indefinitely. To do so signifies a lack of trust in God to help you succeed in doing what He commands you to do.

In Mr. Orchard's sermon on fasting, he quoted all or parts of this passage: "Is this not the fast that I have chosen: To loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out; When you see the naked, that you cover him, and not hide yourself from your own flesh? Then your light shall break forth like the morning, your healing shall spring forth speedily, and your righteousness shall go before you; The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard" (Isaiah 58:6-8).

What is God saying here to the Church? Is He only talking about physical food when He says we should share our bread with the hungry? We talk about feeding the flock (John 21:15-17), and when we do, we are using food as an analogy for teaching truth, and this symbolism is used much in the Bible (John 6:57, Matthew 24:45-46, Luke 12:42-44, 1 Peter 2:2, Hebrews 5:12-14).

When it comes to spiritual food, we in the Church are well fed compared to the world. Even the poorest fellowship in this regard is far richer than the world. It is the world that is hungry for the truth, and we in the Church have an obligation to share with them the spiritual food others have sacrificed to give us. It is the world that needs us to undo their heavy burdens. And if we share our spiritual food with the world, if we help to loose their bonds of wickedness, to undo their heavy burdens, to break the yoke that is on them, and we bring their spiritual poor into our Church of God house where we can feed them spiritually - if we do all these things, what does God promise?

"Then your light shall break forth like the morning, your healing shall spring forth speedily."

That is God's formula for Church healing. Show compassion to a lost world, and THEN God will help to heal the Church.

The whole idea some may have that by concentrating indefinitely only on one half of the two-fold commission, feeding the flock only but not preaching the gospel to the world, they will facilitate a process of reconciliation within COGFC and in the whole scattered Church of God, is ridiculous, because by neglecting preaching the gospel, which most of the Church of God knows is important, they would be alienating the greater part of the whole Church of God as well as many of their own brethren! They would be driving away those Church of God members who may need a place to support and attend, but cannot go with COGFC because they know that COGFC is NOT preaching the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel, and they do not want blood guilt of the English-speaking nations on their heads. If COGFC pursues that recipe for reconciliation and healing for a long time, it will be shown to be a recipe for further division, not healing at all.

Some brethren in COGaic, and maybe some in COGFC, may fear that COGFC will become just another disappointment, another example of ministers dividing the body of Christ because they can't get along with each other, another example of ministers feeding themselves but not the flock, another example of ministers scattering God's sheep. I hope that fear is unfounded. But I believe that it will come to be true if COGFC does not soon start putting into action what they say in words is important: preaching the true gospel and the Ezekiel warning to a public that needs it.

Because if they firmly put themselves, by their actions, on the side of that part of the whole Church of God that says, now is not the time to preach the gospel, they will not be creating unity with God or unity in the Church, and they will not be healing their own members.

Today is always a good time to do what God says.

If COGFC is serious about preaching the gospel to the world, probably one of the next things they will decide is who can help coordinate and plan that effort. Three of the nine ministers who attended the 3-day conference have been assigned roles by mutual consent: Peter Nathan working with training, education, and doctrine, Brian Orchard working with pastors and congregations, and Steve Andrews working with administration and finances. That leaves six leading ministers who attended the 3-day conference available for an assignment and role to help coordinate discussions, plans, and research on how to preach the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel. If one of those men is given that role, that would be a positive sign, a good first step.

I sense good things about COGFC. I have listened to their sermons and Bible studies and I have liked much of what I have heard. I think it is great that they make their services available live on the Internet for the whole Church of God to benefit from. I have been concerned about their slowness to preach the gospel to the world. But I am optimistic and hopeful that they will soon make a start, even a small one, at preaching the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel.

I believe that once they do that, their efforts to reconcile with God and with the Church will become much more effective.


Here are links to related chapters or sections in Preaching the Gospel:

CHAPTER 4 - WHY PREACH THE GOSPEL? - A LESSON FROM THE HOLOCAUST

CHAPTER 5 - SHOULD THE CHURCH FEED THE FLOCK ONLY?

Is It Always Wrong to Use Pagan Writings in Teaching?

Dr. Bob Thiel has recently published a video on the subject of Christians referring to pagan prophecies in their teachings. The title is "Do Prophets Cite False Prophecies?". I will give a link below.

In this video, Dr. Thiel uses several passages of scripture to make his case that it is sometimes proper to use pagan prophecies in teaching. In this post, I want to examine this subject from a different point of view than I have in the past. In the past, I have pointed out passages of scripture that indicate we should not look to pagan prophecies to know the future or to gain knowledge from supernatural sources that are not from God, or in other words, from demons. At the end of this post, I will give links to some of my other posts on this subject.

Before going further, I want to mention that Mr. Wally Smith has published an excellent post on the general subject of looking at heathen prophecies to know the future, titled, "Christians and Heathen Prophecy", dated January 28, 2014, link:
http://wallacegsmith.wordpress.com/2014/01/28/christians-and-heathen-prophecy/

I encourage you to read his post in addition to mine, for he gives some of the same points I will give, but worded better than mine, and he gives some additional good points I have not given in my posts.

In this post, I want to focus in more detail than I have in the past on the kinds of usages of non-biblical writings and teachings, and I want to examine in detail what kinds of usage is wrong because it violates the obvious intent of scripture. And in doing so, I want to focus in detail on scriptural passages Dr. Thiel uses in his video to support his case.

I will not try to show how dangerous it can be to use pagan prophecies wrongly. I have done that in previous posts, and I will give one or more links to my past posts on this subject at the end of this one.

I am writing this post, not primarily for those who already agree, but for those who disagree, for those who think it is ok to read about or listen to pagan prophecies predicting the future to learn details of the future that the Bible does not give us.

Dr. Thiel's video is listed as 18 minutes and 52 seconds in length. I watched up to about 11 minutes and 43 seconds into the video, then I turned it off. Up until that time, he used the Bible to try to make his case, but I did not find his reasoning convincing. Then, at about 11 minutes and 43 seconds into the program he began to talk about some specifics of Catholic prophecies, I suppose as an example, but I did not want to hear them. I do not want to hear what Catholic "prophets" say will happen in the future.

Here is a link to his video. If you want watch it, and if you agree with me that we should not be listening to or reading about non-biblical prophecies, I found the first 11 minutes and 40 seconds safe to watch. Up to that point, you will get the main arguments he makes in his video, from the Bible, that I will address here. After that, how much he goes into actual pagan prophecies or if he makes other points from the Bible, I do not know. Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgDn3dtvJSo

The first point I want to make, and this is very important for understanding this issue, is that there is a HUGE difference between non-Church of God religious writings and non-biblical prophecies from claimed supernatural sources, what I call "pagan prophecies". I want to spend some time with this, because it is critical to understanding Bible teaching on this subject. I also want to define my terms so that I am not misunderstood. I am not against using non-Church of God religious writings in every case, only in those cases where the source of the teaching claims to get its information from a supernatural source other than the Bible.

Non-Church of God religious writings is a huge field. It can include every teaching, every article, every book, and every sermon or speech about a religious subject by someone outside the Church of God. Some of these teachings may be true, and some false, and some a mixture.

An example of something true would be a mainstream religious article about the importance of loving your neighbor by doing good deeds for him. It might be written by a Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant writer, and it may or may not quote the Bible. Perhaps it quotes the parable about the good Samaritan to make the point that we should show kindness to strangers who are in trouble, such as to someone whose car breaks down on the highway.

An example of a non-Church of God article or sermon that would be false, in error, would be one that teaches that the Sabbath is done away and that Christians should work on the Sabbath and rest on Sunday.

The amount of material that falls into the category of non-Church of God religious teachings is enormous. Thousands of books, probably tens of thousands of books, fall into that category. You can go to any large bookstore and find perhaps hundreds of books on the shelves, or go online and find thousands of books, written by Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jewish writers, and others on the subject of religion, with each writer expressing his opinions about God, religious doctrine, moral values, and his personal faith, whether he quotes the Bible or not, whether his opinions are right or wrong. Some of what is taught is right and some of it is wrong. When a writer says, "Christ died for our sins", that is right, but when a writer says, "the law of God is done away", that is wrong, just to cite a couple of obvious examples.

But within non-Church of God religious writings and teachings, there is a more narrow category, what I have called "pagan prophecies". There is much less published in this category. What this category includes are teachings claimed to be from a supernatural source, but not from the Bible and not from anyone we know as a faithful member of God's true Church. The person writing or speaking either claims to be a prophet or to have had some direct communication from God or an angel of God, or is reproducing and publishing what someone else wrote or said who makes that same claim. In other words, it is claimed to have a supernatural source, but not the Bible, and not from the Church of God.

Now, the person who teaches it may believe that it comes from God. But we in the Church of God know that it does not come from God. It might be just the imagination or deception of a man, nothing more. On the other hand, we know the possibility exists that the real source may indeed be supernatural - it could be from a demon or from Satan himself.

How do we know this? We know it because the source is not the Bible and it is not the Church of God, but it is from someone who does not know the truth of God, that is, someone who is part of this deceived world of religious confusion. We understand that God does not give true prophecies and revelation to those who do not know God, who do not understand and believe the Bible, and who are not called in this age, but rather are part of Satan's world, and, like all humanity not called by God to salvation in this age, are deceived by Satan.

This is what I mean by "pagan prophecies".

Another characteristic of these prophecies or revelations is that they claim to reveal things that cannot be known naturally. If someone says, based on current economic data, "I think the world economy will collapse in three years", that is a human opinion based on natural reasoning. It might be right or it might be wrong. But if a man, who is not called by God and who does not believe the Bible, claims that God appeared to him in a dream and told him the world economy will collapse in three years, that is what I would call a "pagan prophecy" or "non-biblical prophecy". He is not basing his teaching on factual analysis but on a dream or vision, and we know that it is possible that he really did have a dream or vision from a supernatural source - but from demons, not from God.

I am trying to define my terminology here so that I will not be misunderstood as I go in this post.

So we have two categories here. There is the large category of non-COG religious writings, most of which do not claim supernatural revelation apart from the Bible. I will simply call these "non-COG religious writings". Then we have what I call "pagan prophecies", teachings that claim to be inspired by the spirit world, supernaturally inspired. And I am particularly concerned about such revelations that claim to foretell the future.

When the Bible teaches us to avoid demons, to avoid the occult, astrology, mediums, magic, witchcraft, seances, wizards, etc., it is teaching us, in principle, to avoid prophecies about the future that may be inspired by demons or Satan.

But I am not trying to say that we have to avoid every religious writing by someone who is not a member of the Church of God. If that were true, we could not use Bible commentaries. We could not quote or refer to false teachings in order to refute them, nor could we study them in order know how to refute them to help others see that they are in error.

So if I want to write an article to show a Catholic that the soul is not immortal, I might read a Catholic article that quotes the Bible trying to show that the soul is mortal. I can then read those scriptures, and then show logically why they are being misapplied.

But if a Catholic writer claims that God came to him in a dream and revealed the exact year the world economy will collapse, I don't want to hear about it. Either that dream was just from the man's imagination, in which case it is worthless, or it is from a demon or Satan, in which case it can be dangerous. Either way, I am not interested. If it is from a demon, he is not giving that dream to help me, but to hurt me. Satan and his demons are enemies of mankind, and Satan's goal is to hurt and destroy God's people any way he can. He will not help us with dreams and visions, and if Satan inspires dreams and visions, it is for our harm, not our good. That is why God warns us to avoid the occult.

Is Satan the ruler of the demons? Of course he is. Do you think, if it came into the mind of a demon to "help" mankind, that Satan would allow it? Absolutely not.

So I am not against quoting a Bible commentary or a Catholic or Protestant article or sermon, necessarily. I am only against quoting or repeating such an article about visions, dreams, or supernatural revelations from the spirit world telling us what will happen in the future, with one exception, which I will explain later in this post.

We should not spread this stuff, in effect, helping to promote Satan's teachings by giving them publicity and traffic among many who otherwise would not even know about them.

What I think Dr. Thiel and others might do when they justify using pagan prophecies for any use is to sometimes mix up these two categories. That is why I am trying to make a very clear distinction between "pagan prophecies" and general "non-COG religious writings". The first I am against, the second I am not necessarily against.

Of course, wisdom should be used in looking at any non-COG religious writings. We should not blindly "feed" on them - we must be spiritually alert to separate truth from error, or avoid those writings altogether. Usually, if we look at them, it would be for the purpose of teaching the truth to someone who agrees with those writings, either to find common ground to establish rapport and credibility, or to identify and prove error in those teachings.

But possibly demon-inspired dreams, visions, and supernatural revelations about the future should be avoided. We should not read these things to try to gain knowledge about the future that God does not reveal in the Bible, and we should not give them publicity and spread them among people who have never heard of them before.

I want to give just one example from Dr. Thiel's blog of the kind of pagan prophecies I am talking about, the kind we should avoid. I will sum up in just a general way, then give a link and you can read his full post if you want. It is up to you if you want to see the details in the posts - I am not recommending that you do. I am walking a thin line here. I don't want to spread what Dr. Thiel has spread, but I want to describe what he did enough to use as an example. So I will be very general without giving the details he uses.

There is probably nothing in the rest of my post that those of you who agree with what I have written in the past about this subject do not already understand, but as I say, I am writing this mostly for those who think that it is ok to read or spread pagan prophecies.

Basically, in the example I will use in this post, Dr. Thiel talked about an obscure prophet in another country saying that someone from their country would be instrumental in destroying the United States. Links:

Link 1

Link 2

I use this as an example of what I mean by "pagan prophecy", and I will be referring to this example in comparing it with Bible passages Dr. Thiel uses to justify what he does.

Now that I have defined my terms, let's look at the Bible passages Dr. Thiel uses in the first 11 minutes and 40 seconds of his video.

"And it happened in the same year, at the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, in the fourth year and in the fifth month, that Hananiah the son of Azur the prophet, who was from Gibeon, spoke to me in the house of the Lord in the presence of the priests and of all the people, saying, 'Thus speaks the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: "I have broken the yoke of the king of Babylon. Within two full years I will bring back to this place all the vessels of the Lord’s house, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon took away from this place and carried to Babylon. And I will bring back to this place Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, with all the captives of Judah who went to Babylon," says the Lord, "for I will break the yoke of the king of Babylon." ' Then the prophet Jeremiah spoke to the prophet Hananiah in the presence of the priests and in the presence of all the people who stood in the house of the Lord, and the prophet Jeremiah said, 'Amen! The Lord do so; the Lord perform your words which you have prophesied, to bring back the vessels of the Lord’s house and all who were carried away captive, from Babylon to this place. Nevertheless hear now this word that I speak in your hearing and in the hearing of all the people: The prophets who have been before me and before you of old prophesied against many countries and great kingdoms—of war and disaster and pestilence. As for the prophet who prophesies of peace, when the word of the prophet comes to pass, the prophet will be known as one whom the Lord has truly sent.' " (Jeremiah 28:1-9).

In this situation, one who was considered a prophet in Israel, Hananiah, spoke directly to Jeremiah in the presence of the priests and people, delivering what he claimed was a prophecy from God. Jeremiah did not directly contradict him, and Jeremiah may not have known for certain at that point if his prophecy was false because of the way Jeremiah worded his reply. But later, in Jeremiah 28:10-17, God tells Jeremiah that Hananiah's prophecy was false, and Jeremiah then directly contradicted this false prophet.

Notice: Jeremiah was not giving this false prophet publicity or repeating his prophecy to others, spreading it around. Instead, he contradicted it, he refuted it, once he knew it was false. And there is no evidence that Jeremiah knew in advance that this man was a false prophet until Hananiah spoke in his presence.

Jeremiah was in a meeting with priests, the people of Israel, and Hananiah. Hananiah spoke and Jeremiah responded, then later refuted him.

Compare this with Dr. Thiel's quoting of an obscure prophet in a minor country predicting that a certain person from that country would help to destroy the United States. Dr. Thiel does not refute this prophecy, which may have been inspired by a demon. And Dr. Thiel does give it publicity and circulation it would not otherwise have among Americans and Church of God members who never heard of this prophecy.

To make clear the comparison in these two examples:

Refuting a possibly demon-inspired prophecy?

Jeremiah, yes. Jeremiah refuted Hananiah.
Dr. Thiel, no. Dr. Thiel did not refute this obscure prophet from another country.

Spreading a possible demon-inspired prophecy to those who have not heard it?

Jeremiah, no. Jeremiah did not spread Hananiah's false teaching to anyone who had not heard it already.

Dr. Thiel, yes. Dr. Thiel spread this obscure prophet's message to probably tens of thousands of Church of God members and others, mostly Americans, who never heard of this prophet or his message before.

Jeremiah did nothing to spread Hananiah's false message. He replied without committing to it being true or false, then when he learned it was false, he refuted it.

Dr. Thiel spread a message that might be demon-inspired to thousands who never heard it and likely never would have heard it, apart from COGwriter blog, and he never refuted it. Rather, it seems to me the whole tone of these posts of Dr. Thiel is that this is an interesting prophecy because there is a good chance it is true. It seems that Dr. Thiel is looking to this prophecy to add detail about how the United States will be destroyed, or in other words, to learn from a demon more details about the destruction of the United States than God gives us in the Bible.

And if that is not Dr. Thiel's intent, then why these posts? What was his purpose in spreading this prophecy? To refute a false prophecy that contradicts the Bible? No, he never refuted it. To help people who have been deceived by this obscure prophet to see that he is false? No, most of the people who read COGwriter never heard of this prophet before, nor does Dr. Thiel prove the prophet false. To establish common ground with and arouse interest among followers of this false prophet? I think that is unlikely, since the overwhelming majority of COGwriter readers are not in this man's country and never heard of him before.

There is nothing in the account of Jeremiah and Hananiah that indicates that Jeremiah sought out this man to learn details about what God planned to do to Israel or Judah, nor that Jeremiah sought to spread this man's message. And if his first reply was an effort to have "common ground" with the audience that was there, remember, everyone there heard Hananiah's message. Jeremiah was just responding, in front of others, to what Hananiah was saying to Jeremiah.

The example of Jeremiah in Jeremiah 28:1-17 does not justify the action of Dr. Thiel in spreading the obscure prophecy in the posts I mentioned because those two events are not alike. What Bob Thiel did is not like what Jeremiah did. Jeremiah did not spread any false or demon-inspired messages to those who never heard it before. He responded to someone who confronted him face-to-face in front of a larger audience. Later he refuted him. But Bob Thiel did spread a prophecy that may be demon-inspired to thousands who never heard it before, and he never refuted it.

Let's look at another Bible passage Dr. Thiel used.

"For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you" (1 Corinthians 9:19-23).

In this passage, Paul describes the process of establishing "common ground" with those he teaches in order to establish credibility. He speaks to others from their point of view, in other words. Speak their language, speak of things they are familiar with.

Is this what Dr. Thiel does with the posts I mentioned about an obscure prophet from another country predicting one from their country would help to destroy the United States? I don't think so. Why? Because almost all of the COGwriter audience never heard of this obscure prophet before. There is no common ground here. Rather, to most people who read COGwriter, this man and his prophecy would sound very strange and unfamiliar. Dr. Thiel is not using this obscure prophet to speak to the Church of God from our point of view because we do not follow this man. Neither does he speak to Americans, Canadians, Britons, Australians, Frenchmen, Italians, Germans, etc. from their point of view because almost no one in these countries, and in the vast majority of the countries on this earth, follow this man or even heard of him.

So 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 does not remotely justify what Dr. Thiel has done, and does. What Dr. Thiel does in publicizing little-known non-biblical prophecies is completely different from the process Paul describes.

Of course, Dr. Thiel could claim that his websites reach many in this prophet's third-world country. COGwriter gets a lot of traffic, and the Internet being what it is, I have no doubt that at least a few people in almost every country on earth have viewed his blog. But I also have no doubt that the main audience of his blog is the Church of God, plus some additional viewers in the United States and other English-speaking nations. I simply do not believe that a significant number of COGwriter readers are followers of this prophet with whom there is a need to establish common ground. I would need to see reliable statistical proof before I would believe otherwise.

What about Catholic prophecies? There are millions of Catholics all over the world. Would reference to Catholic prophecies be a way of establishing common ground with Catholics?

I was raised Catholic, and most of my family members are Catholic, including every immediate family member. I attended four years of a Catholic high school with religion classes every school day. My sister became a nun. I never heard of these Catholic prophecies that Dr. Thiel spreads with his blog. In fact, I never heard of any Catholic prophecies, not in any religious training in grade school, not in four years of religious instruction in a Catholic high school, not in any sermon by a priest in Sunday mass I attended every week for about the first 20 years of my life, not from any family member. If any such prophecies were mentioned, I do not remember them, so they could not have made any impression. Actually, the first time I remember hearing of a Catholic prophecy was in the Church of God, in a sermon or sermonette given by someone in Worldwide while Mr. Armstrong was alive, long after I left the Catholic Church. Any idea that Catholics are generally familiar with these prophecies is a myth. They are not the focus of Catholic education.

Probably, Catholics who might read COGwriter will become familiar with these prophecies, which may be inspired by demons, from COGwriter and not from their own church! These prophecies are not a good way, in my opinion, to establish common ground with Catholics.

If you want to establish common ground with Catholics, Muslims, or Chinese, you can establish common ground with those doctrines they have that are true. You do not have to refer to their prophets. You can share with Catholics their understanding that Jesus Christ is the son of God who died to pay the penalty of our sins. You can share with Catholics that we are against so-called "gay marriage". You can share with Catholics that we are against abortion. You can share with Protestants, Muslims, and Jews that we are against images and physical idols used to represent what someone thinks God may look like as an "aid" to worship. That is the way to establish common ground. But you do not share in their sins. You do not partake with them of the occult, of demons, of the supernatural spirit world that inspires some of their prophecies. That is not the way to establish common ground.

Look at Paul's statement again in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. He said, "I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." But there are limits to how far Paul could go. Did he become a thief to win thieves? Did he become a fornicator to win fornicators? Did he become a murderer to win murderers? Did he visit pagan temples and share in the worship of idols to win those who did the same? Did he partake of sorcery, witchcraft, astrology, and mediums to win those who did those things? He did not.

Yes, we can establish common ground with those we teach, but only in things that are right, not things that are wrong. There are some things that are good and true in Catholic teachings, but reading of Catholic prophecies is not one of them, and we should not establish common ground that way.

Above all, we should set the right example in what we teach and how we teach it. We should set a right standard, and help people, in terminology they can understand, depending on their culture and background, to comprehend that standard, but we should not lower ourselves to wrong standards to share in their culture.

Here is a third passage in the Bible used by Dr. Thiel in his video:

"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, 'Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23).

And although I do not know if Dr. Thiel referred to this verse, I might add this, because it is similar: "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring' " (Acts 17:28).

This is simply an example of what Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, what I call finding common ground. But if you look closely, you will see that this is different from what Dr. Thiel does with his posts about an obscure prophet who was inspired (perhaps by a demon) to say that one from his country would help destroy the United States.

When Paul says he found an inscription to the UNKNOWN GOD, he is not quoting or referring to any prophecy. There is nothing here about going to an occult source, or supernatural source, or source in the spirit/demon world to know the future. There is no prophet involved who says, "I received a message from God about the future, and here is what will happen". Moreover, Paul is talking about something most of his audience was no doubt familiar with. They knew of that inscription in their own neighborhood and probably passed by it many times. But the vast majority of Dr. Thiel's audience never heard of that obscure prophet and his prophecy about the United States.

Then a bit later, Paul quotes a poet. Now in this case, perhaps not all of his audience was familiar with that poet. But it doesn't matter. The poet was a poet, not a prophet. There is no prediction of the future involved, no claims to supernatural, spirit world-inspired source of information. No occult, no dreams, no visions, no magic, no sorcery, no mediums, no wizards, no "prophets" - just a poet saying that we are God's offspring.

Once again, to make clear the comparison in these examples:

Quoting or referring to a prophecy about the future?

Paul, no. He refers to no prophecy or prediction about the future in mentioning an inscription to an unknown God, or mentioning that a poet said that we are God's offspring.

Dr. Thiel, yes. Dr. Thiel referred to or quoted a prediction about who would help destroy the United States in the future.

Spreading a possibly demon-inspired prophecy to those who have not heard it?

Paul, no. He spoke of no prophecies or prophets, and probably everyone in his audience knew about the inscription to the unknown God.

Dr. Thiel, yes. Dr. Thiel spread this obscure prophet's message to probably tens of thousands of Church of God members and others, mostly people living in English-speaking nations, who never heard of this prophet or his message before.

Once again, what Dr. Thiel does is totally different from what Paul did and cannot be justified by Paul's example and teaching.

I mentioned before that the first time I remember even hearing that there was such a thing as a "Catholic prophecy" was in Worldwide while Mr. Armstrong was alive, in a sermon I think given by a local minister.

I have heard or read Dr. Thiel mention that writers in Worldwide or maybe in LCG have quoted or referred to non-biblical prophecies. That may be true. I am not familiar with every case he may be referring to. If a minister or writer in Worldwide quoted or talked about a pagan prophecy for the purpose of trying to give details about the future that are not found in the Bible, it was just as wrong then as it is now for Dr. Thiel to do it. Using the examples of others doing what the Bible prohibits does not justify anything. You cannot say, "What I am doing is right because someone in Worldwide did that same thing, even though the Bible condemns it." That is false reasoning. We are to go by the Bible. And the Bible teaches us to avoid demon-inspired prophecies to learn about the future.

To be honest, I don't think I fully realized that it was wrong until Bob Thiel began doing it on a regular basis, but Dr. Thiel forced me to focus on the issue of whether it is right or wrong according to the Bible, and I now know it is wrong. To mention that others have occasionally done in the past what Dr. Thiel does on a frequent basis is no justification.

I said earlier I am against quoting or repeating teachings about visions, dreams, or supernatural revelations from the spirit world telling us what will happen in the future, with one exception, and I will explain that now.

If a pagan prophecy becomes well known, and is false according to the Bible, it is right for the Church of God to refute it, and in refuting it we would have to refer to it and possibly quote it. This is what was done in the Bible.

There is no need to refute something that is so obscure, no one knows about it. But suppose a so-called prophet says, "I received a message from God that Christ will return to the earth in exactly one year". Now suppose that prophet received a lot of publicity. Suppose it was a famous person who said it, and it was in the news. In that case, it would be right for the Church to show, from the Bible, that this prophecy is wrong. And in doing this, we would have to look at it, quote from it, and then refute it with scripture.

Dr. Thiel asks in his video if it is wrong to denounce false prophecies. No, it is not wrong.

But is that what Dr. Thiel has done in his posts about the prophet from a third-world country saying one of his countrymen would help destroy the United States? No, Dr. Thiel does not denounce that prophecy, he spreads it among thousands who never heard it before.


Why am I beating this one example to death? It is a clear example. It illustrates that not all of Dr. Thiel's writings about non-biblical prophecies fall into any category of approved behavior in the Bible using the examples of Jeremiah or Paul, which Dr. Thiel uses to support his practice of using non-biblical prophecies. Is this example unique? I don't think so, not in its essential elements. I no longer read such prophecies in COGwriter, not since I realized they are wrong. I have not read his books, but I have seen their covers (sometimes you can judge a book by its cover).

What are those elements?

1. The prophecy is from a source that claims supernatural inspiration, but is not from the Bible or from the Church of God, and therefore it may be inspired by demons.

2. It predicts the future and adds details about the future that the Bible does not give us.

3. The prophecy is largely unknown to COGwriter's audience.

4. Dr. Thiel does not refute the prophecy.

It is the combination of the above elements that makes the reading of and spreading of these prophecies a violation of the spirit and intent of God's instructions to avoid false prophets and the occult. With the above elements, such use of pagan prophecies means the potential spreading to Church of God members as well as others lies that Satan wants us to believe for our harm. That is why God warns us to avoid the occult.

Moreover, the refuting of false prophecies should not be used as an excuse to spread details that you do not refute. We have to be realistic. Suppose there is a pagan prophecy that few people ever heard of. Maybe one paragraph or a section of this prophecy gives five predictions. You quote the whole paragraph, then refute one small point in that paragraph according to the Bible, but leave the rest unchallenged. You are not refuting Satan's prophecies, you are spreading them. Instead, just teach the truth from the Bible about what the point is that you want to refute. You don't have to quote the prophecy and spread it to refute it - just teach the truth - that is refutation enough.

If there are a million false prophets that teach that Christ will return in one year, I don't have to quote ANY of them to refute all of them. All I have to do is teach from the Bible that the tribulation and Day of the Lord take three and a half years and precede the return of Christ and then show that the tribulation hasn't started yet. With just a few paragraphs and a few scriptures from the Bible, I can refute all those false prophecies without quoting from them, referring to them, or even knowing myself that they exist.

The truth from the Bible will refute every false prophecy that needs to be refuted.

Circulating a false prophecy among thousands or millions of people who never heard of it before, just to show that one small detail is wrong, leaving people to believe the rest of the prophecy, is not protecting others from deception - it is spreading deception - and the "refuting" argument becomes just an excuse.

Let me give a hypothetical example. Suppose there is a false prophecy that says that the anti-Christ will come from heaven in the year 2020 and make everyone keep the Sabbath. Should I quote it to refute it and to show that Satan will try to make people think Christ is the anti-Christ when He returns? I might think I am doing good if I quote it and explain it, but within that prophecy (this is hypothetical, I know of no prophecy that mentions 2020) would be the year 2020, which I could NOT refute. Might this not plant the idea in the minds of some Church of God members that Christ will return in 2020 because a demon says so, so it might be true? Might that be what Satan wants?

Can you see a subtle trap here?

Rather, I can refute this very effectively by showing that the true Christ commands us to keep the Sabbath, and I can prove the truth of the Bible and any truths about the anti-Christ from the Bible without mentioning any pagan prophecies at all. And those who are willing to believe the Bible will then be protected from Satan's deceptions.

I don't think I can out-smart Satan in figuring what parts of his teachings are safe to spread. I would rather trust God when God says, avoid Satan's prophecies about the future. I want to stay away from the edge of the cliff.

When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, Satan told Jesus to command that stones be made bread. Would it have been wrong for Jesus to make bread? He didn't have to eat it. He could just let it sit there, just to make a point to Satan. But He stayed away from the edge of the cliff. He did not follow any suggestion of Satan. He didn't try to figure a way to listen to Satan without sinning. He knew Satan would not suggest or give Him anything good, so he avoided it all (Matthew 4:1-4).

Pagan prophecies, and the occult in general, can be a temptation, a weakness, and an addiction for some in the Church of God. By spreading information about them, Dr. Thiel may be a cause of stumbling, a cause of sin, for those in the Church who may be struggling with this or may have a weakness for the occult. Some may have come out of a background of the occult and demonism, and he could be leading them back into the sin they came out of. He might quote a prophecy of a certain prophet that most people never heard about, just to refute it, and someone may be curious about the rest of the prophecy he didn't quote, look it up in the Internet, read more of it, then more, then go to other pagan prophets, and so on, with curiosity leading them to go farther and farther into demonism. For Dr. Thiel to push pagan prophecies to these people is like someone pushing an alcoholic drink into the hands of a recovering alcoholic.

"But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ" (1 Corinthians 8:12). Paul said this to those who put a temptation in front of those with weak consciences who thought it was wrong to eat meat sacrificed to an idol, even though it was not necessarily wrong. How much more would this apply to putting a temptation in front of a Church of God member to do something that truly is wrong in God's sight?

"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea" (Matthew 18:6).

If you want to know the future, you can look to the Bible or you can get known facts and try to estimate, based on logic, what will probably happen. But don't let your curiosity provoke you into going to demons to learn details about the future that God has not given us in the Bible. Curiosity can be a trap. Curiosity can tempt us to disobey God's instructions. Just as curiosity about sex does not justify unmarried teenagers experimenting with sex, so curiosity about the future or about demons does not justify listening to their predictions about the future. Curiosity is one of the temptations we have to learn to resist if we are to obey God. Curiosity can be one of Satan's devices.

The Bible tells us about the destruction of the United States. We don't need to know in advance what person Satan may use to do it or to know exactly when it will happen.

Don't go to Satan for information that God has not given us. You may pay a heavy price if you do.


Here is a related link on this subject. At the bottom of that post are several other links to posts on this subject. See my post titled, "How Should We Prepare to Resist Satan's Deceptions?", dated May 5, 2013, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-should-we-prepare-to-resist-satans.html

What Is Your Church Identity?

If you are a member of the Church of God, and by that I mean, if you are converted and have the Holy Spirit dwelling in your mind, what is your identity in terms of Church of God affiliation? Whom do you identify with? David Hulme? Jesus Christ?

When a speaker says, "Church of God", do you think of the whole Church of God, all its scattered fellowships and members included, or do you think of the particular fellowship you attend?

If you are a member of Church of God, an International Community (COGaic), led by Mr. David Hulme, and at services someone tells you, "so-and-so left the Church", do you think, that person left COGaic, or do you think, that person left God's Church entirely, going back to the world, not keeping the Sabbath anymore, not believing in the truth anymore? Or if a minister in a sermon says, "don't leave the Church", do you think he is primarily talking about the particular fellowship that employs him or the whole Church of God, going back into the world, in other words? If a member leaves your fellowship to attend another fellowship, do you think of him as leaving the Church of God?

What is your identity? With whom do you identify?

Some groups and some leaders try to build your primary identity with that leader and that group. They want you to identify, in your mind, with them personally more than with Christ, with the fellowship they lead more than with the whole Church of God.

Why?

Is it because they are more concerned with themselves than with the members? Is it because they want to build the group that feeds them more than the whole body of Christ? Is their primary loyalty to themselves and to men, not to God?

I am not talking about leaders and groups that may occasionally talk about the advantages of the group, the blessings of the group, in an effort to encourage their members to stay. I am not talking about leaders and groups that give true warnings about the dangers of some other leaders and groups that hold and teach false doctrines.

I am talking about leaders and groups that speak and behave as if they are the WHOLE Church of God, and there is no one else. I am talking about speakers about whom you need have no doubt, when they say, "Church of God", or, "the Church", they are NEVER talking about the whole Church of God, but only their particular fellowship. I am talking about leaders who never acknowledge that there are converted Christians in other fellowships that are part of the body of Christ.

Is this unbiblical? You bet it is!

"For when one says, 'I am of Paul,' and another, 'I am of Apollos,' are you not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase" (1 Corinthians 3:5-7).

Our primary identity should be with Jesus Christ and God the Father. And when we think of ourselves as members of "the Church", we should primarily think of ourselves as members of the whole Church of God, the entire body of Christ made up of everyone having God's Holy Spirit regardless of what fellowship we attend, and we should not primarily think of ourselves as members of one particular fellowship as organized and led by one man.

I hope this principle is easy to understand and accept for most members.

Yet some leaders may teach and promote primary identification with themselves and the organization they lead rather than with the whole Church of God.

I call this "identity heresy".

To me, "heresy" is a strong word. I do not use it for minor errors in doctrine. But I think this error is so serious that the word heresy should apply.

There are signs that a Church of God leader may be teaching this kind of wrong identity.

Refusal to perform marriage ceremonies of members of that fellowship with members of another fellowship can be a sign. If a member of Church of God, an International Community (COGaic) wants to marry a member of another fellowship, such as Living Church of God (LCG), and the COGaic minister cannot perform the marriage ceremony because Mr. Hulme forbids him, but for no other reason than that one marriage partner is in a different fellowship, this would be a strong indication of the kind of problem I am talking about. It sends a wrong message, perhaps the message that marriage between Church of God members of different fellowships is somehow tainted, unclean, polluted, defiled, not blessed in God's sight. It sends a message that such newlyweds should feel guilty for getting married. I consider this to be heresy.

God's instructions for marriage are clear. Church members are to marry, "in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 7:39). We are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers (2 Corinthians 6:14). But there is no prohibition in the Bible against marrying outside of one's organized fellowship or congregation. Unless, that is, an "unbeliever" is considered to be one who is in another fellowship because he does not believe in the leadership of David Hulme, or whoever the leader is who discourages such marriage. There would have been no prohibition against a member in one of Paul's congregations marrying a member in one of Peter's congregations (Galatians 2:6-10).

In 2 Corinthians 6:14, an "unbeliever" is one who does not believe in the gospel, in God's truth, in God's way of life, and in God the Father and Jesus Christ. But if a particular leader thinks "unbeliever" is someone who does not believe in his leadership, he is raising himself to an importance God does not give him. That this is a serious error is evident - thus I call this problem "heresy".

It is also a hardship for young people in the Church of God seeking a mate. Even the whole Church of God is a small community in which to find a compatible mate. How much more one small fellowship within the whole Church? If a member desires or needs a mate, should he or she feel pressured to remain single or to marry one he or she is less compatible with just to please the unbiblical position of a human leader?

It may also be hypocrisy for a leader, who is blessed with a wife he met at Ambassador College, to demand such a sacrifice he himself was never required to make. Christ had harsh words for the Pharisees, who "bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers" (Matthew 23:4).

Not all ministers and Church of God leaders found wives at Ambassador College, but many did, especially the older ministers, and most of the leaders are older. Ambassador College, when you might have about 200 men and 200 women at a single campus, was a blessing in that regard. It was in some respects an ideal situation for finding a compatible mate. Few Church of God congregations have anywhere near even a hundred singles eligible for marriage, and some fellowships do not either. And to meet even that many, one might have to journey from one end of the country to another, attending every social, visiting congregations on the Sabbath at every opportunity, etc. Ambassador College made it easier. How much harder it can be to try to find a mate within a small fellowship.

Another sign of identity heresy is discouraging members from visiting other Church of God fellowships on the Sabbath, or discouraging members from reading the literature of other COG fellowships. And another sign is the teaching that God only works through one man at a time, which I have, in other posts in this blog, shown from the Bible is false. The Bible has several examples of God working through more than one man at a time.

I once heard a minister in a fellowship that had all these signs of identity heresy give a sermon and say to his audience that if any of them even thinks God may work through more than one man at a time, he is causing division. I say that the speaker was promoting division in the body of Christ by saying that, and I think the Bible backs me up.

Another sign is speaking and acting as if no other Church of God fellowship exists, that the fellowship the leader supervises is the only fellowship in the Church of God.

I am happy to observe that Church of God, a Family Community (COGFC) does not seem to have this problem. From what I have heard in their sermons, there is a consciousness, an awareness, that the Church of God is more than one organization. They seem to understand that Church members are scattered and they seem to take seriously their obligation to seek out and help and serve the whole scattered Church as God gives them opportunity. And they seem to understand and teach that our identity should be tied to God the Father and Jesus Christ, not just one fellowship and one human leader.

I also notice that they are giving online Bible studies every Friday night and online Sabbath services every Sabbath for any member who has Internet or a phone. You do not have to be a member of their fellowship to listen in and receive spiritual instruction. In that sense, they are willing and able to feed the scattered flock that the Church has become.

Of course, many Church of God fellowships post sermon recordings and many books and articles in their websites. Church of the Great God publishes its sermons, Living Church of God does also, and United Church of God posts many sermons even by area and congregation (COGaic does not even do this, by the way, as far as I know, at least in a form accessible to everyone). I am sure there are other such organizations, and I am not trying to leave anyone out, but these are some of the biggest groups I know of that publish their sermons for all to hear.

But not as many give live, real-time access to their services, as COGFC does. I have used their website to view and listen to their services real-time, running the executable program that shows their services, and it works fairly well. I find it surprisingly simple and easy to use.

This may be a benefit for many scattered members who are not able to attend services in person with any other group. Some of their sermons are very good. Some of their sermons teach the importance of preaching the gospel to the world, the importance of the doctrine of the identity of Israel, and other important topics. I only hope they follow through with their plans to preach the gospel to the world, the sooner the better.


Here are links to related chapters or sections in Preaching the Gospel:

Church Government, Chapter 7