Update on Church of God, a Family Community (COGFC)

Upcoming March Conference

COGFC is planning another conference in early March, starting on March 2 with a one-day open house conference which members may attend. Details are in the Father's Call website, link:
http://thefatherscall.org/meetings/

Those who wish to attend should email Mr. Peter Nathan at peter@p-k-nathan.net.


Peter Nathan's Question and Answer Session Last Sabbath

In my last post about COGFC, I reported that Mr. Nathan is planning to go with Living Church of God. He spoke about this in a question and answer session last Sabbath following Mr. Rodzaj's sermon. I expected this question and answer session to be posted as an mp3 audio file in the COGFC website, but I have not found it yet. I expected it to be published because other COGFC audio messages, such as sermons, Bible studies, a question and answer session on January 4, and an online deacon and elders meeting were published on the site. Recently, other recordings have been published very promptly, for example, last Friday's Bible study was published on Saturday, and Saturday's Sabbath sermon was published Sunday. But it has been several days, and Mr. Nathan's explanation as to why he is going with LCG has not been published. I no longer expect that it will be published.

Who controls the website? Who controls the audio recording? I do not know. Is it Mr. Steve Andrews because he controls the bank account? I do not know. If you want to know, you can email him - there is an "Ask a Minister" page for asking ministers questions on the COGFC website. Follow the "Contact" link, then "Ask a Minister". Of course, there is no list of ministers' email addresses. Presumably, all questions are filtered through Mr. Steve Andrews or whoever controls the website.

The webpage for asking questions is not very good. There are fields to be filled out, which are required, but no labels to state what the fields are for. I tried using it to send an email to COGFC some time ago, but I received no reply or acknowledgement.  Perhaps it is my browser.  I tried a different browser and I found labels inside of the boxes.

It would be nice if each of the nine ministers who attended the conference had an email address you could use to contact any one of them individually without being filtered through one person who manages the website. I would think there should be email addresses for contacting at least the leading ministers, such as Brian Orchard, Steve Andrews, etc.

From a worldly point of view, it should be no surprise that Mr. Nathan's explanations for going with LCG are not published by ministers who are currently controlling COGFC and the website. It should be no surprise if Mr. Rodzaj elected not to have the session recorded (he gave the sermon, so I assume this took place in his congregation and in meeting space Mr. Rodzaj controls). After all, in terms of the ways of this world, COGFC and LCG are competing organizations. Why should COGFC publish something favorable to its competitor?

But ministers in COGFC have been claiming to favor reconciliation. They have given the impression they are in favor of reconciliation with the whole Church of God. They have said they want to seek out the lost sheep that are scattered. Some might get the impression that, unlike Mr. Hulme, they view God's Church as bigger than themselves, bigger than the one organization (if you can call COGFC an "organization") they are part of. Of course, it would be hard for them to claim COGFC is the "only true Church of God" since it is so small and so recent.

If Mr. Andrews and Mr. Rodzaj are serious about reconciling with God and with the Church of God brethren regardless of what organization they attend, if they want to work towards unity in the Church of God, they should not be viewing LCG as a competing organization but rather as a part of the same body of Christ they are part of, serving the same Master. They should be willing to publish the recording of Mr. Nathan's answers as to why he thinks he should go with LCG at this time. They should not be afraid that some members might be persuaded by Mr. Nathan's statements to think that maybe LCG would be a good choice for them also. They should be glad to give the brethren every opportunity to get and study all the facts before making their long-term decisions.

Of course, if COGFC is really "just another split" because ministers cannot get along with other ministers, just another division in the body of Christ because ministers want to go their own way, then none of that will matter to them. If all the talk about reconciling with God and the brethren, building unity, serving the membership, is just that - talk and nothing more, talk to please the brethren and say what they think the brethren want to hear - they may not care about letting the brethren be able to review and study Mr. Nathan's teachings he gave in his question and answer session. Make no mistake about it - there is teaching in that session. It is as much a sermon about doctrine, about teaching, about God's way of life and truth as the sermon given by Mr. Bob Rodzaj shortly before.


Bob Rodzaj's Sermon

Mr. Rodzaj gave the sermon. It is available in the COGFC website. Here is a direct link to the page that lists it:
http://thefatherscall.org/sermons/

Look for the 2/15/2014 message by Bob Rodzaj entitled "The Way Forward". You can download it as an audio mp3 file. I also see a link for a transcript for that sermon.

I listened to that sermon, and I will summarize what I understand to be some of Mr. Rodzaj's main points, and then I will comment. You can get more detail by listening to the sermon itself, or by reading the transcript.

Here is my summary of some of his main points, some of it in my own words: We fasted to seek God's guidance in finding the right way forward. What God is doing is a straight line, but we often react negatively, in a seismic way, because we have difficulty understanding and accepting what God is doing when it differs from what we want or expect. We may be resisting what God is doing and making things more difficult because we do not see what God is doing. If we are divided we need to be drawn into a unity that God's Spirit produces when we yield to God's Spirit. We should not try to control or force the outcome or grab the steering wheel out of God's hands. We should not get in God's way or get ahead of God, but rather, we should get in step with what God is doing.

We should not try to do God's job for Him, but rather, participate in what God is doing, but not try to be the director. God did not put us in charge to decide what we should be doing. Sometimes we can't know what God is doing until we see it unfold. There are examples in the Bible of people being surprised by what God is doing, such as Ananias and Saul, Peter and Cornelius and the brethren who accused him for eating with gentiles, etc.

Our mission is to declare the message and prepare a people, but a question is, what is the best way to do that? This is Christ's Church and we have to let Christ lead us. We should let go of the steering wheel completely and ask God's help for us to align ourselves with what He is doing. Eventually, everything God does or allows will make sense.

That ends my summary. You can listen to the sermon itself and judge if I have summarized it accurately and fairly. I encourage you to do so, if you have not already heard the sermon.

I have comments about some points raised in this sermon.

It is evident that this sermon is intended to address some kind of problem in the Church, but these points are not clarified with concrete examples of what some in the Church are doing, so it may be hard to say exactly what problem this message is addressing. I get the impression that this is intended to address disagreements some members and ministers in COGFC may have about the direction COGFC controlling ministers are taking. In this context, "what God is doing" may refer to the decisions and direction of COGFC so far set by the leading ministers. "Resisting God", "getting in God's way", "trying to force the outcome", "grabbing the steering wheel", "getting ahead of God", etc. may be referring to brethren and ministers in COGFC who disagree with COGFC's current direction.

What might those disagreements be about? That is never stated clearly in this sermon.

I don't think it is about minor issues, such as what time services are held, whether there are snacks on the snack table, the quality of the video broadcasting, the name of the organization, the appearance and design of the website, or some small detail about prophecy.

There are only two major issues that COGFC leaders have decided, that I know of. They have decided to postpone the preaching of the gospel and Ezekiel warning and concentrate solely on healing the Church and achieving reconciliation with God and with each other in the Church, for an indefinite time. And they have decided to postpone decisions about a permanent structure of governance so they can break new ground and develop a new model of hierarchical government, presumably different from what existed with Mr. David Hulme or with Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong. How long this will take is unknown.

So they rejected adopting the hierarchical structure and model practiced by Mr. Armstrong and they have rejected immediately preaching the gospel to the world.

Every other decision they made, the decision to set up a website, the decision to look at the possibility of a Feast site in Tucson, the decision to broadcast Sabbath services live, is small in comparison to these two big issues: the gospel and government.

I think it is reasonable to assume that the problem this sermon addresses is the problem of members and ministers disagreeing with the direction COGFC is taking with one or both of these major issues. I don't have any idea what else this could be about. And I sense enough of a desire on the part of the members to preach the gospel that I think, of these two issues, that is the big one that members disagree about.

How should the main points of the sermon relate to the issue of members desiring to see COGFC preach the gospel, but the controlling ministers postponing it? That is what I will comment on.

Behind all these points seems to be an assumption that what men decide in a conference they may call an "Acts 15" conference is guided by God and therefore represents "what God is doing". But I must ask a question. It may seem harsh, but I am not trying to be disrespectful towards the office of ordained minister. God's instructions that we are to show respect to the office of minister are clear. But I have to ask, how are members to know if their ministers are following Christ, or not? That is a fair question, isn't it? Because if members are not to ask themselves if their ministers are obeying Christ, if they are only to blindly follow where their ministers lead because the ministers are always right, then that raises the question of how ministers and leaders of many different Church of God fellowships are leading their members in very different directions and not even getting along with each other. How can they all be right when they do not all agree and can't even get along? And if members of other COG fellowships should ask themselves, "Are the ministers in the fellowship I attend really obeying Christ?", should not members of COGFC ask themselves the same question?

The Bible is clear that ministers can make mistakes, and we see evidence of that all over the place in the history of the Church of God since Mr. Armstrong died. What a minister or a group of ministers does is not always "what God is doing".

Will we someday see that everything God "allows" makes sense? Yes and no, depending on whether you are referring to God's decision to allow something or the decision of a man to do something wrong, which God allows. So for example, we know that Hitler murdered millions of Jews in Nazi concentration camps. Is that something God allowed that makes sense? Well, it makes sense for God to allow it, but it never made sense for Hitler to do it. God was right to allow it for good reasons, whatever those reasons are, but Hitler was never right to do it.

God may indeed allow ministers to make mistakes, even serious mistakes, even sins, and God is always right in His decisions to allow that, but the ministers are not right to make bad decisions. God sometimes allows men to do bad or foolish things, to test us and them, to teach us lessons, but it is never right for those men to do bad or foolish things.

God sets up circumstances to allow us to choose between right and wrong, and sometimes we choose right and sometimes we choose wrong. God is right to test us that way, but that does not mean He approves of our wrong choices. And we should not think that every bad or foolish thing men do is "what God is doing".

Has God put us in charge to decide what we should be doing? He has put each of us in charge of our lives to choose between right and wrong, and He has shown us right and wrong in the Bible. He commands us, in the Bible, to preach the gospel and the warning to the world. That is what is right. That is what God tells us, in the Bible, we should be doing. Then God creates the circumstances in our lives that requires us to choose. He gives us free moral agency. In that sense, he puts us in charge of the decisions we will make, to choose between right and wrong. But God does not let us choose what is right or wrong. He only lets us choose to do the right or to do the wrong. As far as what is right and wrong, God, not the ministry, makes that decision, and God makes His decision known to members and ministers alike through the Bible.

We DO have to decide what we will be doing. We have to decide if we will obey God or not. God has already decided what He has commanded us, and we only have to decide if we will obey Him or not. He has commanded us to preach the gospel.

As the Church of God, should we let go of the steering wheel completely? Is that what the ministers in the 3-day conference did? Did they let go of the steering wheel completely, or did they begin to steer COGFC in certain directions?

For a minister in COGFC who was a participant in the 3-day conference late December or early January to say that God has not put us in charge to decide what we should be doing seems a bit unusual to me, because those nine ministers certainly decided what they should be doing at this time. They decided they should be working towards reconciliation and healing, but not preaching the gospel. They decided not to immediately adopt hierarchical structure of government as taught by the Bible and Mr. Armstrong, but to break new ground to develop a new model and structure of governance.

To assume, without proof from the Bible, that what is happening in COGFC is God's doing and has God's approval is wrong. It is just as wrong to assume that the decisions being made in COGFC have God's approval as to assume that the decisions made in COGaic by Mr. David Hulme have God's approval or that the decisions made by any leader of any Church of God fellowship or organization have God's approval. The problem is, we should not assume these kinds of things. I don't say we should assume that these decisions are wrong either. But rather than assume one way or another we should use God's word, the Bible, to evaluate and judge which decisions are according to God's word and which decisions are not. We should prove things by the Bible.

Christ is the head of the Church, but He does not force obedience, even if the ministers gather in a conference they call an "Acts 15" conference. Each minister must choose whether he will follow where Christ leads, or not. How does he know where Christ leads? The same way the membership knows, by the Bible.

How can we know if ministers are following Christ? We must judge by fruits. A good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree produces bad fruit. But how do we evaluate the fruit? How can we tell what fruit is bad and what fruit is good? Two men might see the same fruit, and one says, "It is bad fruit," and the other says, "It is good fruit." Who is right? We must evaluate the fruit by the word of God, the Bible. The Bible will teach us to recognize bad fruit as bad and good fruit as good. That is the only way. But that requires diligent Bible study and putting Bible teaching above the teaching of the ministry. There is no shortcut to that.

Is the decision to postpone preaching the gospel and focus only on trying to heal the Church a good fruit or a bad fruit? You must study the Bible to know the answer.

And if you say, it takes time to see the results, take a close look at Church of the Great God. You will see the results, because many years ago they chose to focus primarily on healing the Church, not preaching the gospel to the world. They did not say they were against preaching the gospel. They just said that healing the Church must come first, and preaching the gospel to the world should wait until the Church is healed. Sound familiar?

I have shown in previous posts and in my book, Preaching the Gospel, that the Bible is abundantly clear that the Church is to preach the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel, and there is no valid reason, from the Bible or from logic, for postponing obedience to God's command in this matter in order to focus only on healing the Church.

Give me one scripture that shows, in the context of the entire Bible and all scriptures on the subject, that Jesus Christ authorizes His Church to choose to postpone obedience to God's command to preach the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel. I haven't found any such scripture and I don't think it exists. The "beam in the eye" passage is not such a scripture, as I have proved in previous posts. The idea that reconciling and strengthening the Church spiritually cannot be done at the same time as preaching the gospel is ludicrous, in fact, the opposite is true: you cannot reconcile and heal the Church and the brethren without at the same time obeying God's command to preach the gospel to the world. If you try to heal the Church only, without simultaneously preaching the gospel, thus focusing inwardly, you will not heal the Church, unless you are able to heal the Church on your own, with your own human power, but not God's help. If you think you can do that, you are wrong. But if you want God's help, you better do what God says: feed and flock AND preach the gospel to the world.

To heal and reconcile the Church requires God's help, His inspiration, and His miraculous intervention. Don't expect that kind of help if you are not obeying God. And if, as a Church, you are not preaching the gospel, then you are not obeying God, because God commands it.

One point in the sermon regards being drawn into the unity that God's Holy Spirit produces when we yield to God's Spirit. But unity should not be our primary goal. Christ said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword. "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; and 'a man’s enemies will be those of his own household' " (Matthew 10:34-36). Moreover, the parable of the tares strongly implies, and Church history seems to show, that not all those who attend with us in the Church, whether members or ministers, are truly converted, and not even those who are converted are equally submitted to God (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43). Our goal should be obedience to God's will, and our guide to knowing God's will is the Bible. Unity will result among those who submit to God's will as defined by the Bible. But unity will not result between those who obey the Bible and those who do not, even if they sit next to each other in Sabbath services.

If person A and person B are divided, person A may be following God but person B is not following God. So in a sense, person B does need to yield more to God's Spirit. But not person A who is already yielding to God. It is not person A's fault he has no unity with person B, and for person A to try to "yield" to a spiritual or supernatural influence on his mind that draws him to agree with person B is a wrong choice. He should remain faithful to the Bible even while person B resists the Bible. And he is not going to change person B. Eventually, there will be a separation. And this can happen among "brethren" in the same congregation or Church of God fellowship. That is part of what Christ referred to when He said that a man's enemies will be those of his own household.

How do we yield to God, not get in God's way, not resist God, and not get ahead of God? You go by the Bible. You do what God tells you to do in the Bible. When God says, "Preach the gospel", or "warn Israel", you are not resisting God by doing what He commands, rather you resisting God if you are supporting and following those who lead you NOT to do what God commands. And as I pointed out before, you are never getting "ahead" of God by doing what He inspired the prophets and apostles to write in the Bible thousands of years ago. If you start preaching the gospel now, you are not ahead of God, God is ahead of you by more than 1,900 years! We can do no more than follow in the footsteps of those who have gone before us.

Should we accept God's direction, in the Bible, even when it is different from what we want or think should be done? Yes. Should we accept the ministers' direction even when it is different from what God says in the Bible He wants? No.

God does not want us to blindly follow the ministry wherever the ministry leads. He wants us to study and know the Bible and obey the Bible first and the ministry second. We are to respect the ministry, because God in the Bible tells us to, but we are to believe and obey what God says in the Bible first.

Nor are we to be passive and just drift with the flow, never making waves. Christ never set an example of being passive, and neither did the prophets and apostles. Rather, we are to energetically and passionately do God's work, with zeal. We are to overcome obstacles (Genesis 32:24-30). We are to contend earnestly for the faith (Jude 3). What we do, we are to do with all our might (Ecclesiastes 9:10, Judges 16:28-30). We are to resist what is wrong and strive for what is right. And we must let the Bible define what is wrong and what is right. If that kind of zeal and effort is what is referred to as "forcing the outcome", then we would be sinning if we did not "force the outcome". In the parable of the talents, the man who hid his talent in the sand didn't try to force any outcome, and he lost out (Matthew 25:14-30).

Did Mr. Armstrong ever try to "force an outcome"? Did he ever try to control events? He was not passive. He didn't just "go with the flow". He didn't wait for events to unfold, wait to see what others did, then assume that was what God was doing and just "go along". Rather, he looked to the Bible to know God's will, then he PUSHED to do it, he DROVE himself to accomplish what God commanded, even in the face of opposition, disagreement, persecution, and severe problems of every kind. If Mr. Armstrong thought, "I should not try to force any outcome", or "I should never try to control events", he would never have pushed to overcome and solve problems and we would not have the truth we have today. Ambassador College never would have started, or survived once it started, the Plain Truth would not have survived, the Church would never have grown to what it became when most of us were called. Of course, he could see God's hand opening some doors, closing others, and he always acknowledged that it was God working through him that accomplished the work, but Mr. Armstrong always looked to the Bible to know God's will, then pushed to accomplish it.

I am not advocating that members openly disrespect COGFC ministers, contradicting them or belittling them in conversation with others. But they certainly should think independently and if necessary talk to their ministers directly and in private. And I think they should ask tough questions when ministers open up meetings for questions.

COGFC ministers have never made a biblical case, to the brethren, for what they have decided, for what they have done. They have chosen to focus on Church healing at the expense of the gospel, but they either never got that focus from the Bible or they never showed the brethren where in the Bible they received that focus. If they are right, if God is guiding them and they are submitting to God, they need to make the case to the brethren, and they need to make it by the Bible. And when they make the case, they cannot, if they are honest, pick and choose the scriptures that support their position and ignore other scriptures that show the importance of preaching the gospel and the warning to the world. If they are not honest, and if they try to make their case by selecting only the scriptures on one side, the brethren will see through it, at least those who know and believe their Bibles.

COGFC ministers need to make their case by the Bible because the faith of the members must be in God and in God's word, not in the ministers. Brethren cannot support the decisions of COGFC ministers by putting their faith in God and the Bible if they are not given the reasons for those decisions from the Bible. COGFC ministers should prove their case by the Bible so members' faith will be in God, not man.

What went on behind closed doors at the three day conference at the beginning of the year? What reasons were given for postponing the gospel? What scriptures were studied? What voices were in favor of the gospel, what did those voices say, and why were they overruled? The brethren have not been told. But they see the results. They see that David Hulme is doing more to preach the gospel than any minister in COGFC. They see that Mr. Hulme practices hierarchical structure of government, the same structure that Mr. Armstrong practiced, the same structure that the Bible teaches, but the ministers in COGFC don't even know what kind of structure of government they want to have. After almost two months, they don't know. No one knows who is in charge. No one knows how decisions are made (except the nine ministers in that conference). You can't even email ministers individually from email addresses in their website with your questions or comments, you can only fill in a form on a webpage, which goes to somebody (who knows who) who can screen, edit, delete, or forward email, if that computer page even works correctly. And I suspect it doesn't, for I never received a reply to an email I tried to send through that form.

Some ministers might say, the members should not judge the ministers. But as I have pointed out, that is wrong. The members have an obligation to study and know where God wants them to attend and who God wants them to support. To do this, they have to evaluate the ministers, and the ministers should cooperate with that process by openly giving the members the information they need to make decisions, not hiding important facts from the members.

As I point out in my book, Preaching the Gospel, some things we should judge and some things we have no business judging. We must judge those matters required of us to make decisions God has given us the responsibility for making. One of the examples I use in my book is choosing a mate. Normally, we should not go around evaluating the spiritual conversion, or lack thereof, of brethren we come into contact with in our congregation. That is not our business. But if we are considering a person as a future wife or husband, we have to judge that person's conversion because God commands us to marry "in the Lord" and we can't obey that requirement without judging if someone is really converted.

Likewise, members have to judge ministers and fellowships because God commands us to attend services when possible and to tithe, but He doesn't tell us the name to write on the tithe check or where to attend. So we have to make those decisions, and that requires judging.

If you are a member of COGaic, or COGFC, or are simply scattered, God requires you to make choices and decisions about tithing, attendance, etc. What should you write on your tithe check? "Church of God, an International Community"? "Church of God, a Family Community"? "Living Church of God"? Do you send your check to David Hulme, Steven Andrews, Roderick Meredith, or someone else? You won't find those names in the Bible. God doesn't give you names like that, and the only Church name God gives you in the Bible is "Church of God" - you have to choose which one, and God holds you responsible for making the best choice you can according to your knowledge and ability. You can't do that without judging the performance and faithfulness of the ministry.

God commands that we love our neighbors as ourselves (Matthew 22:37-40), that we warn those headed towards disaster (Proverbs 24:11), and that we preach the gospel to the world and make disciples (Matthew 28:18). This love for the people in this world requires that we exercise due diligence to support whoever is faithful to preach the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel, and if we members, not just ministers, do not take that responsibility seriously, the blood of the people will be on our heads.

So ministers should not feel it is wrong for us members to judge their performance and faithfulness to God's word. We have to judge them - that is part of our job as Christians during this time when the Church is scattered into many different fellowships. God holds us members responsible for judging with righteous judgment, according to the word of God, the Bible. Rather than feel that members are wrong to judge, ministers should cooperate with members by giving them as much information as possible about what they are doing and encouraging them to get the facts and look at more than one side before making a decision. Thus, COGFC leaders should encourage members to listen to Mr. Nathan's reasons in his question and answer session as to why he has decided to go with LCG. They should not hold back publishing the recording if they have it available.

Moreover, if the ministers take a course of action, they should give the members their reasons, from the Bible, so the members can evaluate those decisions based on the Bible. The members must put their faith in the Bible, not in the ministry. If the members support the decisions of the ministry, they must do it based on faith in God's word, not on faith in the ministry, but for the members to base their support on the Bible, they must be given the Bible reasons for the decisions. That never happened. So for COGFC members to support the decisions of the controlling COGFC ministers, decisions to postpone the gospel and reject the hierarchical structure of government that Mr. Armstrong taught and the Bible teaches, those members would have to put their faith in the ministry, because the Bible does not support those decisions.

Did the COGFC ministers ever prove to the members, from the Bible, that the hierarchical structure of government taught by Mr. Armstrong should be rejected? No, they did not.

Did the COGFC ministers ever prove to the members, from the Bible, that preaching the gospel to the world and warning Israel should be postponed until the Church is healed? No, they did not.

There is no precedence in the New Testament, once the Church started on the Day of Pentecost, for postponing preaching the gospel until the Church is spiritually healed.

The question comes up, what is the best way to fulfill our mission of declaring the message and preparing a people, as was stated in the sermon.

If you are not sure you know the best way to do the job God has given us, you ask God to help you decide wisely, then you make a decision and go forward. You do it the best way you know how at the present time. Then, as time goes on, as God gives you wisdom to know a better way, as you learn from your mistakes, as you learn by doing, you improve the way you are doing it. But you don't sit on your hands indefinitely because you aren't sure the best way. Doing nothing is the worst way to do something.

Imagine you have just learned about the seventh-day Sabbath. You say, "I do not know the best way to keep the Sabbath. Should I spend most of my time in Bible study? How much should I pray? Where should I go for services? Since I do not know the best way to keep God's commandment, I will not keep it at all until I figure it out. I will work on my job on Saturday, go grocery shopping, clean the garage, etc. until I figure out the best way to keep the Sabbath, whether it takes me three months, six months, or a year to figure it out." Does that make sense to you? And if it does not make sense, neither does it make sense to postpone God's command to preach the gospel until we figure out the best way to do it. You learn by doing, you learn by making mistakes and learning from mistakes. If you wait till you know the best way of preaching the gospel before you start, you will never start. You will never learn the best of doing something until you start doing it.

Yes, it is true that God sometimes works in ways that surprise us and are different from what we want. But it is a mistake to simply look at what the ministers are doing and assume that they are acting correctly and God approves of their decisions and therefore, it is God's doing, and then blindly support it. Instead, we are to put our faith and trust primarily in God's word, and when we see the ministers acting contrary to God's word in important matters, then we should respect the office, not harshly criticize the ministers with brethren while we are still in that organization, but quietly look for a fellowship with ministers who are more faithful, or find a way to obey God within the organization even if the ministers do not.

And by the way, I have listened to the messages of COGFC, nearly all of them, on their website, and I have not heard one word forbidding members, deacons, or elders in COGFC from starting up a website and preaching the gospel on their own. If Mr. Andrews or Mr. Rodzaj or any other minister has told the COGFC members, "Don't try to preach the gospel on your own by setting up a website and running pay-per-click ads for it," I have not heard it. So it would not be disobedience to the ministry for members to do so. Nor have I heard COGFC ministers say, "Make sure you send ALL your tithes and offerings to COGFC, while you are attending with us, don't send half your tithes and offerings to LCG or some other Church of God that preaches the gospel," so that would not be disobedience either. But if COGFC leaders say that, that would be the time for any member or minister who understands the importance of obeying God now, not postponing the preaching of the gospel, to leave COGFC and trust God to lead them to a better fellowship.


What Will Happen Now?

I sense a strong enough zeal on the part of some members and ministers in COGFC to obey God's commands to preach the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel, that I do not think the current situation will last much longer. Those members and ministers will not be held back.

They do not want the blood of the people to be on their heads. They want to please God by obeying Him. They want to follow God more than man. And many of them have genuine love and compassion for the people in our countries who will go through the tribulation. They want to warn them so they can repent before it is too late.

What are their options? COGFC will have another conference beginning in less than two weeks. During that conference, the controlling ministers in COGFC will either decide to begin immediately to preach the gospel, or they will not. What members and ministers will do will depend on that choice.

Suppose they decide to continue the course they have set, to continue postponing the preaching of the gospel to the world.

As I have said in previous posts, those members and ministers who want to preach the gospel have several options.

The simplest option is to leave COGFC and begin to attend and send tithes to whichever Church of God fellowship seems to be most faithfully preaching the gospel to the world and feeding the flock in a balanced way, according to the Bible. That might be Living Church of God. Mr. Nathan's choice may influence others to consider that option more than they have in the past.

There are other options. A group of members and elders within COGFC may simply use their own money and time to set up a website for preaching the gospel and warning our nations about the tribulation to come. They can do that while they remain in COGFC. They can advertise it with Google pay-per-click advertising. To my knowledge, COGFC ministers have not forbidden this. Maybe they will, though, or maybe they have already forbidden it. How they could justify telling members they can't do that I do not know and won't try to guess.

The days when you need a big organization to preach the gospel or a person like Mr. Armstrong with exceptional talent and speaking ability and business skills to do business with radio stations and the like, is over. This is a different time. For better or worse, the Internet makes it possible for individuals or small groups with limited business experience to preach the gospel and deliver a warning, and to do so as effectively and extensively as their budget allows.

Or, members can stay in COGFC and split their tithes, one-half tithe to COGFC for their work of feeding the flock and healing the Church and one-half tithe to a group that is preaching the gospel - again, this might be Living Church of God. If tithe money, but not members in attendance, go to LCG, LCG will not have increased expenses feeding the flock and will not have to hire ministers to take care of those members, so any increase in tithe income can go entirely into preaching the gospel.

Some members may go back to COGaic, based on the reasoning that Mr. Hulme preaching the gospel a little bit is better than COGFC preaching the gospel not at all.

Finally, if there is an ordained minister in COGFC who is willing to separate from COGFC controlling ministers and organize a new group that will preach the gospel and heal the Church both at the same time, that minister, with the support of a few other ministers, elders, deacons, and members, may form a new fellowship.

One way or another, those who have zeal for the gospel will go forward. They will not be stopped by those who say, "Now is not the time." They will put their trust in God, not the ministry of COGFC, and they will separate from them if necessary.

There is a lot here about trust. COGFC leaders want members to trust them that they are following God, but they cannot show the scriptures to back up their decisions. Members who trust God will put the Bible first and will see in the Bible that preaching the gospel is a command from God that should not be postponed.

COGFC controlling ministers seem to want members to trust that what they are doing is what God is doing. But then, why did they not trust that what Mr. Hulme was doing is what God is doing? If they say, Mr. Hulme's behavior was not consistent with the Bible, do not COGFC members have the same right to say, what COGFC controlling ministers are doing is not consistent with the Bible? Do COGFC controlling ministers have much credibility if they say, do what we say, not what we have recently done? Have they not set the example of leaving a fellowship to obey the Bible that their own members may follow in leaving them to obey the Bible? Did not COGFC ministers "control and force an outcome" when they left COGaic? Maybe they were forced out, but before they were forced out, didn't they confront Mr. Hulme with their disagreements, and in that sense were they not forcing an issue or trying to control an outcome? Were they not trying to persuade Mr. Hulme to change his decisions?

Isn't it inconsistent for COGFC ministers to teach members to assume that decisions made by them is "what God is doing" when they did not make that assumption about David Hulme? Because everything COGFC leaders might say about not "forcing the outcome" and the need to align with what God is doing within the organization can be equally said about their relationship with Mr. Hulme and COGaic.

To put it bluntly, should COGFC members trust Mr. Steven Andrews, Mr. Bob Rodzaj, and other COGFC leaders more than those leaders trusted Mr. David Hulme? And if those leaders lost trust in Mr. Hulme and left him because they observed unbiblical decisions in Mr. Hulme, should not COGFC members lose trust in and leave COGFC leaders when they see those leaders making unbiblical decisions to postpone preaching the gospel to the world contrary to God's commands?

Now, what if COGFC decides to start preaching the gospel?

Then the question becomes, will they do it effectively, with zeal, or only do a token amount to satisfy the brethren? If all the leading COGFC ministers get behind an all-out effort to really preach the gospel effectively, giving it equal priority to feeding the flock and healing the Church, their budget will show it. And they should be transparent in how they are handling the finances as far as how much income they are receiving, how much is going for feeding the flock (minister salaries, expenses, hall rentals, the Church website for members, etc.), and how much is going for preaching the gospel (website expenses for a site that is for the public, advertising expenses, booklets and magazines mailed out to the public, radio, etc.). If that is the case, if their finances show they are spending 35%, 40%, 45%, or more on preaching the gospel, then there is a chance COGFC will hold together. But if they are only spending 10%, that is better than nothing, but may simply be a token response to satisfy the brethren, and it will not be very effective.

Can God open a way to preach the gospel with power without spending money? Of course. But has He done that yet? No. And until He does, the Church has to make do with the methods it presently has, and that means spending money. So use those methods for reaching a mass audience that we already have available and require spending money: Internet, advertising, radio, television, and/or print publishing. Then, if God opens a new door for preaching the gospel without spending money, we can go through that door. But that hasn't happened yet. The door for preaching the gospel using financial resources is open right now - to those who are willing to go through it. It requires sacrifice, but what else is new?

The door to preaching the gospel is actually only open for those who want to go through it. It is physically open to everyone in the sense that the same physical opportunities exist for all COG fellowships: Internet, print publishing, radio, TV, public meetings, freedom to publish with minimum government interference, financial prosperity to pay for it, etc. But whether it is spiritually open depends on the state of mind of the ministers and brethren. Some see the need and some do not. For those who see no urgency in preaching the gospel and the warning, they do not have the open door. Why? What makes the door open for some, such as Dr. Meredith and Mr. Armstrong, but not for others such as perhaps Mr. Andrews and Mr. Rodzaj? God opens the door by opening our minds to see the need. If some ministers and members cannot see the need, the door is closed for them because they will not go through it. For those who see the need, the door is open for them because they are willing to go through it.

Try talking to a typical non-COG member, perhaps a Catholic or Protestant, about what the Bible teaches about Christmas and Easter. Will he understand what you are saying? No. Why? He is blinded. God has not opened his mind to understand. It is crystal clear in the Bible, but he can't see what you see.

Now, if you see the urgency for preaching the gospel and a warning, try showing this, from the Bible, to a Church of God member who is NOT in favor of preaching the gospel at this time. Will he see it? Often, he can't see it, even though it is crystal clear in the Bible. God has not opened his mind to see that point. Why? God, for His own reasons, has not given him the open door for preaching the gospel, so God has not opened his mind to see the need for preaching the gospel. In this case, an open mind that sees the need to go through the door equals the open door for that person. Open mind = open door.

How else, in this day of equal access to technology and money, can God open the door for some but not for others? He opens the door by opening the mind to see the need to go through the door.

Yet, just as people of the world have a part in their decision to reject what the Bible says about Christmas and Easter, and some are called and have the opportunity to understand if they are willing, yet may reject that opportunity, likewise, members of the Church of God may have the opportunity to accept what God says in the Bible about preaching the gospel, even if they have not understood it before.

God can see if a Church of God member has zeal for God and love for people, and some of that love and zeal may be expressed by his desire to preach the gospel, and if a person has has that love and zeal, God can open his mind to what the Bible says about the gospel to encourage him and stir up his desire to preach the gospel till he is willing to do whatever it takes to go through the door. That is one way God opens the door. And if a member does not have that love and zeal, he will not see the urgency about the gospel until he repents. But he may repent, and putting him in a situation that forces him to make choices about the gospel can be a step in his repentance.

Part of God's purpose in the COGaic split may be to test and separate ministers and members, to test them and separate them according to his will. Why separate? Some will go to a place of safety and some will not. Some will have an open door for preaching the gospel and some will not. Those who do not have an open door for preaching the gospel and those who will not go to a place of safety are still part of God's Church and are still loved by God. But they need different leaders and a different ministry than those who will finish preaching the gospel and go to a place of safety. Thus separation may be needed.

Part of that separation has occurred when ministers and members came out of COGaic. But some has yet to occur within COGFC itself. Why? Everyone who left COGaic did not leave for the same reason. Some ministers may have left because they saw the need for preaching the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel, a need that Mr. Hulme was not effectively taking care of. That is certainly not the only reason. Some ministers may have left for other reasons plus preaching the gospel and some may have left for other reasons only, not caring about the preaching of the gospel. Some no doubt were forced out by circumstances.

I said before, it is unlikely that all nine ministers in the first conference have been on the same page. Now, of the leading three, one has declared his intention to go with another group. I think he is making the right decision. Perhaps the others do not have the same opportunity, but some probably would not go with LCG even if they had the opportunity. Some would probably not like LCG's hierarchical government and emphasis on preaching the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel.

At this point, if the COGFC controlling ministers do not have their heart in preaching the gospel, I think it is better if they keep going as they are rather than make a small token effort to preach the gospel just to satisfy the brethren and collect their tithes. At least, if they do nothing to preach the gospel, they are clearly showing where they stand. If they make a token effort to please man, they may deceive their own members for years, making them think they are doing, or about to do, an important work, but never really doing much effectively. Does that sound familiar to brethren and former brethren in COGaic? It should.

I spoke about the reasons why ministers left COGaic. What about members?

Some members may have had personal difficulties with Mr. Hulme, but most were not in contact with him as much as the ministers were. I think the majority of members who left COGaic for COGFC did so for two reasons: some have a zeal for preaching the gospel to the world and some simply want to stay with their pastors who have left COGaic. Some may be motivated by both reasons.

But God needs to test and separate, test and separate, and He does it based on where we are at spiritually, what character we have developed, what lessons we have learned, and what lessons we still need to learn. He is testing and separating both ministers and members. Mr. Nathan leaving COGFC to go with LCG is one example. God presents ministers and brethren with choices. The choices of where to go, where to attend, who to support, are both the test and the separation.

Now, the ministers in COGFC hold an office, all of them, that of ordained minister of Jesus Christ, and that office needs to be respected. I do not mean to imply otherwise. And ministers who are not in favor of preaching the gospel to the world or of hierarchical government may be the best ministers right now for brethren who feel the same way.

There are brethren in the whole, scattered Church of God who do not have zeal for preaching the gospel or top-down government, and those brethren need to be pastored by someone. Ministers who also do not have zeal for the gospel and top-down government can still teach many subjects effectively. They can teach other basic doctrines.

But they are not good teachers for brethren who have zeal for the gospel and for top-down government.

Christ promises an open door to Philadelphian Christians in Revelation 3:7-8. I won't rehearse the evidence here, but there is Bible evidence that this open door refers to preaching the gospel to the world. He also promises protection during the tribulation (Revelation 3:10). I think one of the ways Christ opens the door is by inspiring zeal to go through that door. It is not just money or opportunity, for that is basically the same for all fellowships. Philadelphian Christians have an understanding of the need for preaching the gospel and the Ezekiel warning. That is not the only thing that is required, but I think it is one requirement. But Philadelphians cannot preach the gospel to the world when they are led by Laodicean ministers.

For 15 years many members in COGaic have waited and yearned patiently for Mr. David Hulme to do a powerful work of preaching the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel. That never happened. Now, many have left COGaic hoping that COGFC will do better.

But every indication since COGFC formed is that they will NOT do better in that department. There has not been the slightest movement to preach the gospel and the Ezekiel warning to the world.

But this can work for good. It may work for good that the leading ministers in COGFC, or those who are really in control, whoever they are, are not preaching the gospel to the world and have no stomach for it. Why is that a good thing?

I said before, God is testing and separating. He is going to separate those who have zeal for the gospel from those who don't, because those who have zeal cannot do a powerful work with those who don't. And I said that the majority of members in COGFC probably left COGaic for one of two primary reasons: they have zeal to preach the gospel or they want to stay with their local pastor who has left. And for some, it can be both reasons in combination.

But God wants to know and separate members, and ministers, according to their understanding of what is important and their zeal for the things of God.

So God will separate those who left COGaic primarily to stay with the minister they know and like from those who left COGaic because of their zeal for the gospel.

And what better way for God to do this than to have the COGFC controlling leaders postpone indefinitely any work to preach the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel.

That will force COGFC members and elders to choose, stay with the minister they feel comfortable with, or do something different to preach the gospel.

Mr. Peter Nathan has made his choice. He is going to support and strengthen a group that is preaching the gospel.

Those in COGFC who have zeal to preach the gospel may have to make a similar choice.

And for those members who choose to stay with the existing leaders of COGFC, those who have controlling power to say "no" to the gospel, and send their full tithe to them, those leaders and ministers may still do a good job of teaching them other things, such as the ten commandments, human relations, etc., and those members need to respect their ministers and learn what they give from the Bible to teach them. But they cannot expect an open door to preaching the gospel or protection during the tribulation.

Those members and ministers in COGFC who have zeal for the gospel will soon realize, if they do not already realize, that those few who control COGFC do not really have their hearts in the gospel, and that is not likely to change.

Peter Nathan Is Going with Living Church of God

During a Question and Answer session after Sabbath services, February 15, 2014, which I viewed online, Mr. Peter Nathan said that he expects to be joining Living Church of God as an employed minister as soon as arrangements are finalized. He will be supervising congregations in all Africa and probably teaching at Living University, LCG's college. He hopes to move to LCG and the Charlotte, N.C. area around the end of March and would like to be in Africa for Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread. Charlotte is the headquarters location for LCG.

Mr. Nathan has been concerned about the Church he pastored in Kenya during his last several years in COGaic. This gives him the opportunity to serve ministers and members in Kenya more effectively (because LCG has certain government permissions in Kenya that COGaic has not had) and at the same time supervise more congregations in the rest of Africa.

Mr. Nathan said that he has always had a good relationship with Dr. Meredith during the times he has known and worked with him in Worldwide, and he pointed out that God seems to have blessed Living Church of God in doing God's work, even in proportion to size, more than COGaic.

The ministry of COGFC will work out who will take care of Mr. Nathan's responsibilities in COGFC.

I view this as a positive development and I think it will work out well for God's Church as a whole.

It was not stated, but I expect that the entire question and answer session will be posted on COGFC's "The Father's Call" website in the next day or two, in their "Messages" page where they have recorded sermons and Bible studies. The questions were submitted in advance via email. Mr. Nathan handled the entire session (about an hour, give or take), and most of it had to do with his joining LCG. Here is a link to the page where I expect the question and answer audio recording to appear:
http://thefatherscall.org/messages.html

Look to the bottom of the page for a question and answer session or message from Peter Nathan dated February 15, 2014. I may post a link here to the actual audio file when it becomes available.


Here are links to related posts in this blog about Mr. Nathan and the other ministers and members leaving COGaic, what I have referred to as COGFC:

"Peter Nathan and Other Ministers Leaving Church of God, an International Community?", dated December 28, 2013, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2013/12/peter-nathan-and-other-ministers.html

"New Website of Ministers Leaving COGaic", dated January 4, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/new-website-of-ministers-leaving-cogai.html

"New Church Coming out of COGaic and 'Mutual Submission' ", dated January 5, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/new-church-coming-out-of-cogaic-and.html

" 'Beam in the Eye', and Preaching the Gospel to the World", dated January 14, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/beam-in-eye-and-preaching-gospel-to.html

"Decision Time for Ex-COGaic Ministers and Brethren - Where Will they Stand?", dated January 17, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/decision-time-for-ex-cogaic-ministers.html

"Will the Nine 'Mutually Submit' to Some among the Fifty?", dated January 22, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/will-nine-mutually-submit-to-some-among.html

"What Is Your Church Identity?", dated January 26, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/01/what-is-your-church-identity.html

"Fasting to Know God's Will and Isaiah 58:6-8", dated February 6, 2014, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2014/02/fasting-to-know-gods-will-and-isaiah.html

Has God Made the Church an "Ezekiel Watchman" for Israel?

Most in the Church of God are familiar with Ezekiel 3:16-21. I will quote the whole passage later in this post, but notice just this part: "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: When I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand" (Ezekiel 3:17-18).

This has been applied to the Church by most, such as myself, who are in favor of preaching the gospel to the world. But some might object and say, "God has not made the Church a watchman."

In this post I want to show, from the Bible, that God has made the Church of God a watchman for Israel, and the Ezekiel warning that the blood of the people will be on our heads applies to us if we do not warn the English speaking nations about the tribulation to come upon them if they do not repent of their sins.

There are two things, in combination, that make us a watchman for modern Israel, those nations such as the United States and Great Britain that will go through the tribulation. Those two things are God's word, the Bible, and circumstances.

God's word teaches certain principles of behavior, a way of life, that requires that we warn people when we see they are in danger and they do not know it. And the circumstances we find ourselves in today require that we give our nations a warning. Those circumstances are simply that we know from Bible prophecy that they are in danger and heading for destruction, but they don't.

What are the scriptures that teach this principle?

First, there is the general principle that we love our neighbor as ourself. "Jesus said to him, ' "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets' " (Matthew 22:37-40). This general principle also includes doing unto others as we would want them to do to us if we were in their circumstances. "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 7:12). Obviously, if you were in danger, but didn't know it, you would want someone to warn you.

This is more than just loving those in the Church of God, but includes loving those in the world, as God set the example. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). This is further illustrated in a parable. "And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, 'Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?' He said to him, 'What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?' So he answered and said, ' "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind," and "your neighbor as yourself." ' And He said to him, 'You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.' But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, 'And who is my neighbor?' Then Jesus answered and said: 'A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.' So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?' And he said, 'He who showed mercy on him.' Then Jesus said to him, 'Go and do likewise" (Luke 10:25-37).

Notice, there is no indication of the nationality of the man who fell among robbers, whether he was an Israelite or a pagan, nor is there any indication of whether he was righteous or wicked, only that he was in trouble and needed help. And remember, Jesus gave this parable to answer the question, "Who is my neighbor?". We, in the Church, might also ask, "Who is my neighbor?", thinking that perhaps our neighbors are only the brethren in the Church, but the teaching of this parable is that our neighbors are those we come into contact with, those we are able to help, regardless of who they are. The command to love our neighbors as ourselves requires us to love the people of the world, those outside the Church of God, as well as the brethren in the Church.

God also gives us a more specific application of this love, that of holding back those headed towards disaster: "Deliver those who are drawn toward death, and hold back those stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, 'Surely we did not know this,' does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?" (Proverbs 24:11-12).

Sometimes the only way you can hold someone back from disaster is to warn them, as with our nations. We cannot force the American and British people to stop sinning, but we can warn them about the consequences.

Notice that in verse 12 of the above quote, the obligation to deliver those drawn towards death is tied to the knowledge of the one this passage is addressed to. We cannot make the excuse to God, we didn't warn the people because we didn't know this disaster was coming. If we try that excuse, God will bring the fruits of our decision upon our own heads. "If you say, 'Surely we did not know this,' does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it? And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?" (Proverbs 24:12).

We are to live by every word of God (Matthew 4:4). This instruction or command in Proverbs 24:11-12 has authority. We must do it.

So the general principle is, we love our neighbors, even those outside the Church of God, and we express love by warning those who need a warning.

God Himself sets the example. I could fill up a book with all the warnings God gives in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. God warned Adam of the consequences of taking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He didn't just say, don't eat if it. He also said, if you eat of it, you will die (Genesis 2:16-17). Likewise we should tell our nations, if you continue in sin, you will suffer and die in the tribulation. The last words of the Bible in Revelation are a warning against those who add or subtract from the book of this prophecy (Revelation 22:18-19), and that warning tells what those consequences are. It is God's nature to express love by giving warnings, and we should do the same.

I said before, we are made a watchman by a combination of scriptures and circumstances. The scriptures mandate, as an application of God's law requiring us to love our neighbors as ourselves, that we warn those who need a warning. Those scriptures are the ones I have quoted, namely, Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, and Proverbs 24:11-12.

What are the circumstances, which combined with God's word and God's law make us the watchman for Israel?

The circumstances are simply that we know the truth and the world doesn't. God has given us, in the Church of God, the knowledge that makes it possible for us to give the warning. No one else has this knowledge. If we don't give the warning, no one else will because no one else knows the truth.

We know that the United States, Britain, Canada, Australia, and other English speaking nations will go through the tribulation. We know what that tribulation will be like. We know why it will happen, that it will happen as a punishment for sin. And we know what those sins are and what our nations need to repent of. God has given us this precious knowledge, not just to save our own skins, but to give a warning to others who do not have this gift of knowledge. We are given the gift so we can share it.

That is what makes us the watchman for Israel. And the Ezekiel warning therefor applies to us.

The "Ezekiel warning" is really a two-fold warning. As applied to the nations of Israel, it is a warning to repent of sin or face the tribulation. But as applied to the Church, to us personally and collectively, it is a warning to deliver the warning to the nations or God will put the blood of the people on our heads. That is figurative language to tell us, God will hold us guilty if we do not deliver the warning. So the Ezekiel warning is a warning for the nations, but a warning for us too.

Also, notice that this warning, for us who have the knowledge, is in the passage I quoted from Proverbs. Not only does God tell us to hold back those stumbling to the slaughter, but he gives a somewhat veiled warning that there will be consequences for us if we don't: "And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?"

So actually, the warning to us in Ezekiel is just an expansion of what Proverbs 24:11-12 is telling us. Ezekiel 3 spells God's warning out in more detail than Proverbs 24:11-12, but it is saying the same thing.

Here is the whole passage in Ezekiel 3 which I quoted a part of earlier: "Now it came to pass at the end of seven days that the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 'Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: When I say to the wicked, "You shall surely die," and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul' " (Ezekiel 3:16-21).

Ezekiel was told to warn the house of Israel, not just the house of Judah. But at the time this was written, the house of Israel had gone into captivity long before Ezekiel received this vision. Thus, it was given to Ezekiel for the purpose of including it in the Bible for our sakes, so we have the message and the warning. In Ezekiel chapter 3, God is speaking directly to the Church of God today.

Therefore, God has made the Church of God the watchman for Israel, to give the warning of the tribulation to come. God has done that by teaching us to warn those who need a warning. And He has done it by giving us the knowledge we need to give that warning. The third chapter of Ezekiel tells us that God will hold us responsible, and guilty, if we do not deliver the warning. And Proverbs 24:11-12 also tells us the same thing, in a more general way.

Some might think the warning has already been completely given by Mr. Armstrong. That is ridiculous. Definitely, Mr. Armstrong did his part and warned millions. But there is still much work to do. The number of people alive today, and the number that will be alive when the tribulation starts, who heard and remember Mr. Armstrong giving that warning, is a very small percentage of all Israel. Most people in our nations have never heard that warning, and it is our job to warn them, now and between now and the time the tribulation begins. Mr. Armstrong got us started with that. He taught us the truth and he set the example. He did what he was able to do in his lifetime. Now it is our responsibility to finish the job.

And the blood of the people will be on our heads if we do not do it.


Here are links to related chapters or sections in Preaching the Gospel:

CHAPTER 3 - THE EZEKIEL WARNING

Is the Church Commissioned to Preach the Gospel to the World?, Chapter 5

Book Introduction

The Church, Chapter 4

The Importance of the Identity of Israel Doctrine

Most in the Church of God are familiar with the teaching that the lost ten tribes of Israel are the English speaking nations like the United States and Great Britain, plus some other European countries such as France, Norway, Ireland, etc. We have been taught that the United States is Manasseh and that Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are Ephraim, the two sons of Joseph. Joseph was the son of Jacob who was also called Israel. It is upon Israel the the soon coming great tribulation will primarily fall (Jeremiah 30:7).

Some call this doctrine, "British Israelism", some call it, "the Israel in prophecy doctrine". I like to call it, "the identity of Israel doctrine".

Whatever it is called, it was taught by Mr. Armstrong from the beginning of the Philadelphia era of the Church. It may be best known from Mr. Armstrong's book, The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy.

During the time Mr. Tkach was changing doctrine after the death of Mr. Armstrong, during the decade of 1987 to 1996, Mr. Tkach and other headquarters ministers in Worldwide began to minimize the importance of this doctrine. Before it was taught to be false, they taught that it was not important. "It has nothing to do with salvation", they said.

I want to show in this post several reasons why this doctrine is very important, sometimes even for salvation. These are not necessarily the only reasons, but for me they are powerful ones.

It has been and continues to be important for my salvation, so I am speaking from personal experience.

Reason number one why this doctrine is important: The prophecies about the sons of Joseph and about King David's dynasty that have been fulfilled in the English speaking nations are one of the major proofs that God has inspired the Bible and that the Bible is God's word.

How important for salvation is it to know that God, the Creator of mankind and the universe, speaks to us through the Bible?

When I first came into contact with the Plain Truth Magazine when I was eighteen years old, I was challenged to prove whether God exists or not. That was not hard. I knew enough about science to see God's hand in the creation of the universe. And I knew that evolution cannot explain human consciousness. I was able to prove, logically, that God exists.

But it is a long step from knowing that a Creator exists to knowing that He inspired the Bible and that the Bible is more than just a collection of human literature.

So the next step was to try to prove if the Bible was inspired by God.

With the help of the Church's literature, I studied prophecy in the Bible to see if fulfilled prophecy might prove that a God who is able to know the future inspired those prophecies. To make a long story short, I found two major cases of fulfilled prophecy that proved, for me, that the Bible is God speaking. One is the prophecy in Daniel that at the time of the end men would run to and fro and knowledge would increase (Daniel 12:4). That, combined with the Bible's teaching of the 7,000 year plan of God, pointed to our time today when transportation and knowledge would vastly increase. And that has been fulfilled exactly as predicted.

By itself, that might be just coincidence.

But the second case is the collection of prophecies concerning the sons of Joseph and the royal line of David. By studying the Bible and history, I was able to prove that those prophecies were fulfilled in a way that I could not reasonably explain as coincidence.

Combined with the prophecy in Daniel, this was more than I could explain as coincidence, and was for me conclusive proof that the Bible is God speaking.

The third step for me did not involve research or study. It was a simple choice. I had to choose whether to believe God, or not. In other words, I knew, by logical proof, that God exists and that He speaks to me through the Bible. But that, by itself does not prove that the Bible is true, only that it is God speaking. In order to know that it is true, I had to take the next step, choose to believe what God says. I had to make a decision whether or not to trust God that He will always tell the truth in the Bible and never lie. So I mulled it over in my mind, and then I made a commitment, to God and to myself, that I will always and unconditionally believe what God says.

That was the beginning of my faith that led to repentance, baptism, and conversion.

Thus, the identity of Israel doctrine was important for my salvation, for without the proof of the inspiration of the Bible that this doctrine supplies, how could I have faith that Jesus Christ ever even existed, much less know and understand all of the doctrines of the Bible that are required for salvation?

Reason number two why this doctrine is important: This doctrine is vital for understanding the work the Church of God needs to be doing in these end times. The knowledge of who Israel is today with the understanding of God's 7,000 year plan for mankind, along with specific prophecies about the tribulation to come, helps us understand the need and the focus for warning our nations about the tribulation to come, what can be called, "the Ezekiel warning". The Ezekiel warning is important enough to God that He says the blood of the people will be on our heads if we do not warn them. (In the near future, probably in my next post, I will show from the Bible that God has made the Church of God today the Ezekiel watchman.)

Our knowledge of the identity of Israel helps us understand that in a few short years the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and several other nations will go through the worst time of suffering, trouble, and death that has ever occurred on the earth, and that this will happen as punishment for our collective and individual sins.

We are able to understand that we need to give a warning. We understand who the warning is for. We understand what the warning is about, that is, the exact nature of the disaster that is coming. And we understand the reasons for it, the sins of our nations. We also understand what the people have to do to repent and escape the punishment, what they need to do to turn from their sins. All this understanding is made possible by the knowledge of who Israel is and the knowledge of how end time prophecies apply to Israel.

That knowledge gives the Church the ability to deliver a warning. It is not the only thing we need. We also need the means to do it (God's help and power, wisdom, time, money, technology - whatever). But at least we have the knowledge of what needs to be done. And we do have the means to do it at least on a small scale. We hope and pray that God will open the doors to give us greater power to reach more people - nevertheless, we can, and are, doing something now. Several Church of God fellowships are delivering that warning, and every month that goes by, more and more people are hearing the warning.

Why is that warning important?

This time is unique in human history because, for the first time, much or most of the first generation in the millennium has already been born. The people that Christ and the resurrected saints will work with are alive today, most of them probably. That first generation in the millennium will remember today. They will remember living in the last days of our material prosperity before our nations are struck. They will remember the agony of the tribulation. And they will remember if God was fair to give them a warning, through the Church, BEFORE the tribulation began so they had a chance to heed the warning and escape the punishment.

In the millennium, would you like to work with people who feel God was unfair because they never had a warning? Would you like to explain why you did not support a warning? Or would you rather work with people who remember hearing the warning, but they also remember that they were responsible for ignoring the warning? Which kind of people would be easier to work with? Which would be more ready for repentance and conversion? Which would be more teachable and ready to become a model nation for the world to follow?

We can give that warning now, and it is the doctrine of the identity of Israel and the prophecies about Israel that enable us to give that warning.

Reason number three why this doctrine is important: It is important for preaching the gospel, making disciples, and bring new members into the Church of God and baptizing them.

This reason actually relates to reason number one, but from a different angle.

I put reason number one on a personal level, showing why it was important for my salvation and can be important for the salvation of others because it proves that the Bible is God speaking. I could never have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior if I did not know that the Bible accounts about Him are true, and I could never have known that the Bible was trustworthy without proving the inspiration of the Bible by the fulfilled prophecies about the sons of Joseph and the line of David.

But also, from the point of view of preaching the gospel, consider what we are saying to people when we preach the gospel.

We are asking people to give up their traditions. We are asking them to give up Sunday, give up the trinity, give up the immortal soul doctrine, give up Christmas and Easter, and give up believing that their traditional church and their ministers are a true church and true ministers of God. In some cases, we are asking them to give up their friends, their wives or husbands, their whole families, and their jobs. That is a lot.

We are even asking them to give up bacon and eggs for breakfast.

The only way they can do that is to believe the Bible more than their traditions, their parents, their churches, their ministers, and their own opinions.

And how hard will that be without proof that God inspired the Bible?

Even with that proof, it is not easy.

We need to understand and teach the truth about Israel and end-time prophecy as part of our effort to preach the gospel so that people can learn, by the fulfillment of those prophecies, to trust the Bible, and then trusting the Bible, be willing to give up their old beliefs and practices and believe and live by the truth.

Mr. Armstrong's book, The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy, was probably the most effective vehicle for preaching the gospel of any one book or booklet or article published by the Worldwide Church of God.

For these and other reasons, the knowledge of who Israel is and what is prophecied for Israel just ahead is vital to the work of the Church of God today.


Here are links to related chapters or sections in Preaching the Gospel:

Why this Subject Is Important, Chapter 1 - The United States and Britain in Prophecy

Fasting to Know God's Will and Isaiah 58:6-8

Ministers and members of Church of God, a Family Community (COGFC) fasted last Sabbath for the purpose of seeking God's will for themselves.

It is good to fast to know God's will, to humble the self, to become responsive to God's correction.

Several weeks ago, prior to this fast, nine leading ministers of COGFC met for a 3-day conference. During that conference certain decisions were made, and COGFC has held to those decisions till now.

Minor decisions were made, such as the decision to set up a website, and similar things. But two major decisions were made, decisions of the utmost importance.

A decision was made at that time not to immediately adopt the model of governance practiced and taught by Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong, but to seek a new model of governance, to break new ground. Thus we see today, several weeks after that conference, a functioning Church with a ministry, members, and Sabbath services, and with an arrangement for collecting the tithes of the members and paying ministers' salaries, but no one man in charge, as leader under Christ, over the rest of the organization, as we had with Mr. Armstrong when he was alive.

Another decision was made in that conference not to immediately begin preaching the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel, even on a small scale at first, but to focus on feeding the flock only, for an indefinite period of time.

Last Sabbath, Mr. Brian Orchard gave a sermon on fasting and on seeking God's will.

When we seek God's will, I think it is best to seek His will in everything, not just the things we have questions about or think we do not know. In other words, we may have questions, things we do not understand, things which puzzle us and prompt us to seek God's direction, "Where do we go from here?". We may feel lost about certain issues and feel the need for God's instruction and guidance. That may prompt us to fast so we can be humble and responsive to God's direction so He can guide our way. All that is good.

But in seeking God's will, we must not close our minds to correction God may give us, through the Bible and through His Holy Spirit, correcting decisions we have already made. It is not enough to go to God and say, "Well, we have been able to make decisions about these two things, but we need Your guidance about this third thing because we don't have an answer, but don't correct us in the things we have already decided because our minds are made up about that and we are sure we are right." That would be the wrong approach, wouldn't it? Rather, we must seek to have minds that are open to God's correction on any subject, even things we think we know about and have already made up our minds about. We must be willing to change, to admit mistakes, as God corrects us and shows us that we are wrong and that we have made bad decisions, even recent bad decisions.

In my opinion, the decision to postpone obedience to God's command to preach the gospel indefinitely may be a mistake, and though I have given my reasons in prior posts, I will summarize some of them here. Perhaps it is true that the brethren need a short period of re-education and preparation before they will be prepared to support the preaching of the gospel. A certain amount of time may be required to make decisions about how to preach the gospel. I only hope that period of time will not be too long. I think the ministers in COGFC are probably sincere in saying that they want to preach the gospel to the world. I hope they will follow up their good intentions with action as soon as possible.

There is an idea that the brethren of COGFC need a period of preparation, of listening to sermons about Israel in prophecy, about the importance of preaching the gospel, about handling relationship problems, about drawing closer to God, BEFORE giving them the opportunity to participate in preaching the gospel to the world as God commands the Church. And during this time, while brethren in Living Church of God and various other groups are blessed with the opportunity to share the truth of God with the world and to obey God's command to give a warning, this blessing is withheld from COGFC brethren for an indefinite period of time. Even COGaic brethren are able to support the preaching of the gospel, though on a small scale, but not COGFC brethren. COGFC has existed for about a month and a half, and during this time Mr. Hulme has done more to preach the gospel to the world than the new group that came out of COGaic, not just because COGFC is small and is a young, recently formed group, but also because COGFC has not even begun to preach the gospel to the world, and to date they have given no clue as to when they will begin. As far as anything they have said goes (that I know of), it could be fifty years before they start to preach the gospel to the world.

And there has not been a glimmer of light in any message or teaching on their website concerning any date when this will change. No domains have been purchased for preaching to the public, no booklets started, no definite plans made, no inquiries about radio time or Internet radio time and costs. Nothing but vague promises that it is important to be a light to the world. Words but no action. This worries me.

Yet, it is possible that there may be thinking, planning, and much prayer in the background in preparation for preaching the gospel. I hope there is. It is too soon to be discouraged, I think. If COGFC begins to take action to preach the gospel to the world in the near future, how wonderful that will be. But if they do not, how ironic it would be if some members left COGaic to follow COGFC because they were unhappy with Mr. Hulme's slow pace of preaching the gospel to the world. They will have transferred from a slow-moving freight train, hoping to find an express train, and they would find themselves in a train that is standing still and is in no hurry to leave the station.

Those members would have left COGaic because they took seriously God's warning about blood guilt if they did not warn Israel about the coming tribulation (Proverbs 24:11, Ezekiel 3:16-21, 33:1-9), and now are they to find that they are in even more danger of blood guilt because they are doing less than they were doing before?

COGFC ministers feel a strong need to heal the flock. But for that very purpose, it is essential that they do not delay preaching the gospel to the world for very long. You will never have true healing of the Church without preaching the gospel to the world.

Some of these ministers may feel that the brethren need a long time of preparation before COGFC can preach the gospel effectively. The fallacy in this is the idea that this time of preparation requires only hearing, not doing. But we learn by doing, not just hearing. Church of the Great God is a perfect test case to show that feeding the flock only does NOT prepare a Church for preaching the gospel to the world, as I pointed out in a previous post. COGFC should not repeat that mistake. For all that COGFC ministers are saying about the need to draw close to God and the brethren, to have healing within the Church before going to the world, was said by CGG when they made the same decision years ago not to give a priority to preaching the gospel to the world. The words may be different, but the human reasoning is the same.

Preaching the gospel helps build character and spiritual harmony in a Church of God fellowship because it is a joint work, a common mission and effort that everyone can participate in, and it has an outward focus, to help others. When you feed the flock only, but do not preach the gospel at the same time, you are teaching an inward focus, whether you want to or not. You might think that is the way to heal the Church, but it isn't going to work.

When you teach the brethren the importance of preaching the gospel with words, but are not doing it with action, you are not practicing what you preach. You are saying one thing with your mouth, but something else with your actions. You are teaching the brethren, by your actions, that you really don't think preaching the gospel to the world is important no matter what you say. You are like a parent who tells his child, don't smoke, yet the parent smokes. Or maybe the parent tells his child, don't smoke, and I am going to quit smoking in a few months, but right now I can't stop. What does that tell the child?

The way to draw closer to God is by obeying His voice in everything, not picking and choosing what to obey now and what not to obey now, but maybe obey later. "To obey is better than sacrifice" (1 Samuel 15:22). "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20). We should have a sense of urgency about obeying God rather than saying, "Now is not the time".

Preaching the gospel is something that can be started now, or soon.  Then as the Church grows closer to God, God can bless the preaching of the gospel more and more. Healing the Church and preaching the gospel should be done at the same time, because one helps the other. Once you start preaching the gospel, members will have an added motivation to reconcile with each other and draw closer to God, so that God will hear their prayers for the success of the radio program, or the pay-per-click advertising campaign, or whatever form preaching the gospel takes. You are trying to stand on one leg if you only do one part of the two-fold commission. It will take longer and with less chance of success to try to build unity, to reconcile with each other and with God, if you are not preaching the gospel to the world at the same time. In fact, it may be impossible to really reconcile with God and the brethren without at the same time preaching the gospel to the world.

Praying for the success of the work of preaching the gospel, contributing tithes and offerings for that purpose, participating where appropriate, welcoming new people when they come in the door, hearing news of the work in announcements each Sabbath - all these things are absolutely vital for the spiritual health of any Church of God fellowship or congregation. If you think you can have a healthy reconciliation with God and between members without preaching the gospel, I think you are deluding yourself.

There is nothing I find in the Bible that indicates God ever intended the Church of God to function in a healthy way by only feeding the flock but not preaching the gospel to the world, not even for a few months.

As a practical matter, many of those members and ministers who are most useful for preaching the gospel, who understand the need and have the most zeal and enthusiasm for it, will likely be driven away in the next several months, and you won't easily get them back later when you need them. COGFC is being judged, not only by God, but by brethren, in COGFC right now, in COGaic, and in the whole scattered Church of God. Brethren have to judge the decisions the ministers make because God holds the brethren responsible for the decisions the brethren make about where to attend and who to support with tithes. And those brethren are making decisions right now and will make decisions based on what COGFC is doing right now and will be doing in the next few months.

In other words, the way you are starting out, good or bad, is the way you are likely to keep going. You are known by your fruits from day one.

Six months from now, COGFC may want to start preaching the gospel to the world, but they may find that they have lost much of their base for doing so. Those who are most zealous for preaching the gospel won't wait - they will go elsewhere, because they regard preaching the gospel as a point of God's word and law they must obey. They do not want the blood of the people hanging over their heads. Those who will be left may be those who never had much enthusiasm for preaching the gospel to begin with, and you are not going to change them. You will be trying to preach the gospel with ministers and members who do not have the stomach for it.

Right now, COGFC probably has a number of ministers and members who have fire in their bellies for preaching the gospel to the world. They can be a core of supporters whose enthusiasm can spread. You probably won't have that in six months if you don't start preaching the gospel now (or soon).

COGFC is taking shape according to which ministers and members are choosing to be part of COGFC and which ones are choosing not to be part. That is a continuous process that takes place as each individual member and family makes the choice, do I go with COGFC? If I am with COGFC now, do I stay or do I leave? These ministers and members are making their decisions based in part by what they see COGFC actually doing from the first day it came into existence. Postponing the preaching of the gospel will shape the kind of membership you will have.

Preaching the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel is a command from God. I do not think COGFC will win God's favor by postponing it indefinitely. To do so signifies a lack of trust in God to help you succeed in doing what He commands you to do.

In Mr. Orchard's sermon on fasting, he quoted all or parts of this passage: "Is this not the fast that I have chosen: To loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out; When you see the naked, that you cover him, and not hide yourself from your own flesh? Then your light shall break forth like the morning, your healing shall spring forth speedily, and your righteousness shall go before you; The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard" (Isaiah 58:6-8).

What is God saying here to the Church? Is He only talking about physical food when He says we should share our bread with the hungry? We talk about feeding the flock (John 21:15-17), and when we do, we are using food as an analogy for teaching truth, and this symbolism is used much in the Bible (John 6:57, Matthew 24:45-46, Luke 12:42-44, 1 Peter 2:2, Hebrews 5:12-14).

When it comes to spiritual food, we in the Church are well fed compared to the world. Even the poorest fellowship in this regard is far richer than the world. It is the world that is hungry for the truth, and we in the Church have an obligation to share with them the spiritual food others have sacrificed to give us. It is the world that needs us to undo their heavy burdens. And if we share our spiritual food with the world, if we help to loose their bonds of wickedness, to undo their heavy burdens, to break the yoke that is on them, and we bring their spiritual poor into our Church of God house where we can feed them spiritually - if we do all these things, what does God promise?

"Then your light shall break forth like the morning, your healing shall spring forth speedily."

That is God's formula for Church healing. Show compassion to a lost world, and THEN God will help to heal the Church.

The whole idea some may have that by concentrating indefinitely only on one half of the two-fold commission, feeding the flock only but not preaching the gospel to the world, they will facilitate a process of reconciliation within COGFC and in the whole scattered Church of God, is ridiculous, because by neglecting preaching the gospel, which most of the Church of God knows is important, they would be alienating the greater part of the whole Church of God as well as many of their own brethren! They would be driving away those Church of God members who may need a place to support and attend, but cannot go with COGFC because they know that COGFC is NOT preaching the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel, and they do not want blood guilt of the English-speaking nations on their heads. If COGFC pursues that recipe for reconciliation and healing for a long time, it will be shown to be a recipe for further division, not healing at all.

Some brethren in COGaic, and maybe some in COGFC, may fear that COGFC will become just another disappointment, another example of ministers dividing the body of Christ because they can't get along with each other, another example of ministers feeding themselves but not the flock, another example of ministers scattering God's sheep. I hope that fear is unfounded. But I believe that it will come to be true if COGFC does not soon start putting into action what they say in words is important: preaching the true gospel and the Ezekiel warning to a public that needs it.

Because if they firmly put themselves, by their actions, on the side of that part of the whole Church of God that says, now is not the time to preach the gospel, they will not be creating unity with God or unity in the Church, and they will not be healing their own members.

Today is always a good time to do what God says.

If COGFC is serious about preaching the gospel to the world, probably one of the next things they will decide is who can help coordinate and plan that effort. Three of the nine ministers who attended the 3-day conference have been assigned roles by mutual consent: Peter Nathan working with training, education, and doctrine, Brian Orchard working with pastors and congregations, and Steve Andrews working with administration and finances. That leaves six leading ministers who attended the 3-day conference available for an assignment and role to help coordinate discussions, plans, and research on how to preach the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel. If one of those men is given that role, that would be a positive sign, a good first step.

I sense good things about COGFC. I have listened to their sermons and Bible studies and I have liked much of what I have heard. I think it is great that they make their services available live on the Internet for the whole Church of God to benefit from. I have been concerned about their slowness to preach the gospel to the world. But I am optimistic and hopeful that they will soon make a start, even a small one, at preaching the gospel to the world and the Ezekiel warning to Israel.

I believe that once they do that, their efforts to reconcile with God and with the Church will become much more effective.


Here are links to related chapters or sections in Preaching the Gospel:

CHAPTER 4 - WHY PREACH THE GOSPEL? - A LESSON FROM THE HOLOCAUST

CHAPTER 5 - SHOULD THE CHURCH FEED THE FLOCK ONLY?

Is It Always Wrong to Use Pagan Writings in Teaching?

Dr. Bob Thiel has recently published a video on the subject of Christians referring to pagan prophecies in their teachings. The title is "Do Prophets Cite False Prophecies?". I will give a link below.

In this video, Dr. Thiel uses several passages of scripture to make his case that it is sometimes proper to use pagan prophecies in teaching. In this post, I want to examine this subject from a different point of view than I have in the past. In the past, I have pointed out passages of scripture that indicate we should not look to pagan prophecies to know the future or to gain knowledge from supernatural sources that are not from God, or in other words, from demons. At the end of this post, I will give links to some of my other posts on this subject.

Before going further, I want to mention that Mr. Wally Smith has published an excellent post on the general subject of looking at heathen prophecies to know the future, titled, "Christians and Heathen Prophecy", dated January 28, 2014, link:
http://wallacegsmith.wordpress.com/2014/01/28/christians-and-heathen-prophecy/

I encourage you to read his post in addition to mine, for he gives some of the same points I will give, but worded better than mine, and he gives some additional good points I have not given in my posts.

In this post, I want to focus in more detail than I have in the past on the kinds of usages of non-biblical writings and teachings, and I want to examine in detail what kinds of usage is wrong because it violates the obvious intent of scripture. And in doing so, I want to focus in detail on scriptural passages Dr. Thiel uses in his video to support his case.

I will not try to show how dangerous it can be to use pagan prophecies wrongly. I have done that in previous posts, and I will give one or more links to my past posts on this subject at the end of this one.

I am writing this post, not primarily for those who already agree, but for those who disagree, for those who think it is ok to read about or listen to pagan prophecies predicting the future to learn details of the future that the Bible does not give us.

Dr. Thiel's video is listed as 18 minutes and 52 seconds in length. I watched up to about 11 minutes and 43 seconds into the video, then I turned it off. Up until that time, he used the Bible to try to make his case, but I did not find his reasoning convincing. Then, at about 11 minutes and 43 seconds into the program he began to talk about some specifics of Catholic prophecies, I suppose as an example, but I did not want to hear them. I do not want to hear what Catholic "prophets" say will happen in the future.

Here is a link to his video. If you want watch it, and if you agree with me that we should not be listening to or reading about non-biblical prophecies, I found the first 11 minutes and 40 seconds safe to watch. Up to that point, you will get the main arguments he makes in his video, from the Bible, that I will address here. After that, how much he goes into actual pagan prophecies or if he makes other points from the Bible, I do not know. Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgDn3dtvJSo

The first point I want to make, and this is very important for understanding this issue, is that there is a HUGE difference between non-Church of God religious writings and non-biblical prophecies from claimed supernatural sources, what I call "pagan prophecies". I want to spend some time with this, because it is critical to understanding Bible teaching on this subject. I also want to define my terms so that I am not misunderstood. I am not against using non-Church of God religious writings in every case, only in those cases where the source of the teaching claims to get its information from a supernatural source other than the Bible.

Non-Church of God religious writings is a huge field. It can include every teaching, every article, every book, and every sermon or speech about a religious subject by someone outside the Church of God. Some of these teachings may be true, and some false, and some a mixture.

An example of something true would be a mainstream religious article about the importance of loving your neighbor by doing good deeds for him. It might be written by a Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant writer, and it may or may not quote the Bible. Perhaps it quotes the parable about the good Samaritan to make the point that we should show kindness to strangers who are in trouble, such as to someone whose car breaks down on the highway.

An example of a non-Church of God article or sermon that would be false, in error, would be one that teaches that the Sabbath is done away and that Christians should work on the Sabbath and rest on Sunday.

The amount of material that falls into the category of non-Church of God religious teachings is enormous. Thousands of books, probably tens of thousands of books, fall into that category. You can go to any large bookstore and find perhaps hundreds of books on the shelves, or go online and find thousands of books, written by Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jewish writers, and others on the subject of religion, with each writer expressing his opinions about God, religious doctrine, moral values, and his personal faith, whether he quotes the Bible or not, whether his opinions are right or wrong. Some of what is taught is right and some of it is wrong. When a writer says, "Christ died for our sins", that is right, but when a writer says, "the law of God is done away", that is wrong, just to cite a couple of obvious examples.

But within non-Church of God religious writings and teachings, there is a more narrow category, what I have called "pagan prophecies". There is much less published in this category. What this category includes are teachings claimed to be from a supernatural source, but not from the Bible and not from anyone we know as a faithful member of God's true Church. The person writing or speaking either claims to be a prophet or to have had some direct communication from God or an angel of God, or is reproducing and publishing what someone else wrote or said who makes that same claim. In other words, it is claimed to have a supernatural source, but not the Bible, and not from the Church of God.

Now, the person who teaches it may believe that it comes from God. But we in the Church of God know that it does not come from God. It might be just the imagination or deception of a man, nothing more. On the other hand, we know the possibility exists that the real source may indeed be supernatural - it could be from a demon or from Satan himself.

How do we know this? We know it because the source is not the Bible and it is not the Church of God, but it is from someone who does not know the truth of God, that is, someone who is part of this deceived world of religious confusion. We understand that God does not give true prophecies and revelation to those who do not know God, who do not understand and believe the Bible, and who are not called in this age, but rather are part of Satan's world, and, like all humanity not called by God to salvation in this age, are deceived by Satan.

This is what I mean by "pagan prophecies".

Another characteristic of these prophecies or revelations is that they claim to reveal things that cannot be known naturally. If someone says, based on current economic data, "I think the world economy will collapse in three years", that is a human opinion based on natural reasoning. It might be right or it might be wrong. But if a man, who is not called by God and who does not believe the Bible, claims that God appeared to him in a dream and told him the world economy will collapse in three years, that is what I would call a "pagan prophecy" or "non-biblical prophecy". He is not basing his teaching on factual analysis but on a dream or vision, and we know that it is possible that he really did have a dream or vision from a supernatural source - but from demons, not from God.

I am trying to define my terminology here so that I will not be misunderstood as I go in this post.

So we have two categories here. There is the large category of non-COG religious writings, most of which do not claim supernatural revelation apart from the Bible. I will simply call these "non-COG religious writings". Then we have what I call "pagan prophecies", teachings that claim to be inspired by the spirit world, supernaturally inspired. And I am particularly concerned about such revelations that claim to foretell the future.

When the Bible teaches us to avoid demons, to avoid the occult, astrology, mediums, magic, witchcraft, seances, wizards, etc., it is teaching us, in principle, to avoid prophecies about the future that may be inspired by demons or Satan.

But I am not trying to say that we have to avoid every religious writing by someone who is not a member of the Church of God. If that were true, we could not use Bible commentaries. We could not quote or refer to false teachings in order to refute them, nor could we study them in order know how to refute them to help others see that they are in error.

So if I want to write an article to show a Catholic that the soul is not immortal, I might read a Catholic article that quotes the Bible trying to show that the soul is mortal. I can then read those scriptures, and then show logically why they are being misapplied.

But if a Catholic writer claims that God came to him in a dream and revealed the exact year the world economy will collapse, I don't want to hear about it. Either that dream was just from the man's imagination, in which case it is worthless, or it is from a demon or Satan, in which case it can be dangerous. Either way, I am not interested. If it is from a demon, he is not giving that dream to help me, but to hurt me. Satan and his demons are enemies of mankind, and Satan's goal is to hurt and destroy God's people any way he can. He will not help us with dreams and visions, and if Satan inspires dreams and visions, it is for our harm, not our good. That is why God warns us to avoid the occult.

Is Satan the ruler of the demons? Of course he is. Do you think, if it came into the mind of a demon to "help" mankind, that Satan would allow it? Absolutely not.

So I am not against quoting a Bible commentary or a Catholic or Protestant article or sermon, necessarily. I am only against quoting or repeating such an article about visions, dreams, or supernatural revelations from the spirit world telling us what will happen in the future, with one exception, which I will explain later in this post.

We should not spread this stuff, in effect, helping to promote Satan's teachings by giving them publicity and traffic among many who otherwise would not even know about them.

What I think Dr. Thiel and others might do when they justify using pagan prophecies for any use is to sometimes mix up these two categories. That is why I am trying to make a very clear distinction between "pagan prophecies" and general "non-COG religious writings". The first I am against, the second I am not necessarily against.

Of course, wisdom should be used in looking at any non-COG religious writings. We should not blindly "feed" on them - we must be spiritually alert to separate truth from error, or avoid those writings altogether. Usually, if we look at them, it would be for the purpose of teaching the truth to someone who agrees with those writings, either to find common ground to establish rapport and credibility, or to identify and prove error in those teachings.

But possibly demon-inspired dreams, visions, and supernatural revelations about the future should be avoided. We should not read these things to try to gain knowledge about the future that God does not reveal in the Bible, and we should not give them publicity and spread them among people who have never heard of them before.

I want to give just one example from Dr. Thiel's blog of the kind of pagan prophecies I am talking about, the kind we should avoid. I will sum up in just a general way, then give a link and you can read his full post if you want. It is up to you if you want to see the details in the posts - I am not recommending that you do. I am walking a thin line here. I don't want to spread what Dr. Thiel has spread, but I want to describe what he did enough to use as an example. So I will be very general without giving the details he uses.

There is probably nothing in the rest of my post that those of you who agree with what I have written in the past about this subject do not already understand, but as I say, I am writing this mostly for those who think that it is ok to read or spread pagan prophecies.

Basically, in the example I will use in this post, Dr. Thiel talked about an obscure prophet in another country saying that someone from their country would be instrumental in destroying the United States. Links:

Link 1

Link 2

I use this as an example of what I mean by "pagan prophecy", and I will be referring to this example in comparing it with Bible passages Dr. Thiel uses to justify what he does.

Now that I have defined my terms, let's look at the Bible passages Dr. Thiel uses in the first 11 minutes and 40 seconds of his video.

"And it happened in the same year, at the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, in the fourth year and in the fifth month, that Hananiah the son of Azur the prophet, who was from Gibeon, spoke to me in the house of the Lord in the presence of the priests and of all the people, saying, 'Thus speaks the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: "I have broken the yoke of the king of Babylon. Within two full years I will bring back to this place all the vessels of the Lord’s house, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon took away from this place and carried to Babylon. And I will bring back to this place Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, with all the captives of Judah who went to Babylon," says the Lord, "for I will break the yoke of the king of Babylon." ' Then the prophet Jeremiah spoke to the prophet Hananiah in the presence of the priests and in the presence of all the people who stood in the house of the Lord, and the prophet Jeremiah said, 'Amen! The Lord do so; the Lord perform your words which you have prophesied, to bring back the vessels of the Lord’s house and all who were carried away captive, from Babylon to this place. Nevertheless hear now this word that I speak in your hearing and in the hearing of all the people: The prophets who have been before me and before you of old prophesied against many countries and great kingdoms—of war and disaster and pestilence. As for the prophet who prophesies of peace, when the word of the prophet comes to pass, the prophet will be known as one whom the Lord has truly sent.' " (Jeremiah 28:1-9).

In this situation, one who was considered a prophet in Israel, Hananiah, spoke directly to Jeremiah in the presence of the priests and people, delivering what he claimed was a prophecy from God. Jeremiah did not directly contradict him, and Jeremiah may not have known for certain at that point if his prophecy was false because of the way Jeremiah worded his reply. But later, in Jeremiah 28:10-17, God tells Jeremiah that Hananiah's prophecy was false, and Jeremiah then directly contradicted this false prophet.

Notice: Jeremiah was not giving this false prophet publicity or repeating his prophecy to others, spreading it around. Instead, he contradicted it, he refuted it, once he knew it was false. And there is no evidence that Jeremiah knew in advance that this man was a false prophet until Hananiah spoke in his presence.

Jeremiah was in a meeting with priests, the people of Israel, and Hananiah. Hananiah spoke and Jeremiah responded, then later refuted him.

Compare this with Dr. Thiel's quoting of an obscure prophet in a minor country predicting that a certain person from that country would help to destroy the United States. Dr. Thiel does not refute this prophecy, which may have been inspired by a demon. And Dr. Thiel does give it publicity and circulation it would not otherwise have among Americans and Church of God members who never heard of this prophecy.

To make clear the comparison in these two examples:

Refuting a possibly demon-inspired prophecy?

Jeremiah, yes. Jeremiah refuted Hananiah.
Dr. Thiel, no. Dr. Thiel did not refute this obscure prophet from another country.

Spreading a possible demon-inspired prophecy to those who have not heard it?

Jeremiah, no. Jeremiah did not spread Hananiah's false teaching to anyone who had not heard it already.

Dr. Thiel, yes. Dr. Thiel spread this obscure prophet's message to probably tens of thousands of Church of God members and others, mostly Americans, who never heard of this prophet or his message before.

Jeremiah did nothing to spread Hananiah's false message. He replied without committing to it being true or false, then when he learned it was false, he refuted it.

Dr. Thiel spread a message that might be demon-inspired to thousands who never heard it and likely never would have heard it, apart from COGwriter blog, and he never refuted it. Rather, it seems to me the whole tone of these posts of Dr. Thiel is that this is an interesting prophecy because there is a good chance it is true. It seems that Dr. Thiel is looking to this prophecy to add detail about how the United States will be destroyed, or in other words, to learn from a demon more details about the destruction of the United States than God gives us in the Bible.

And if that is not Dr. Thiel's intent, then why these posts? What was his purpose in spreading this prophecy? To refute a false prophecy that contradicts the Bible? No, he never refuted it. To help people who have been deceived by this obscure prophet to see that he is false? No, most of the people who read COGwriter never heard of this prophet before, nor does Dr. Thiel prove the prophet false. To establish common ground with and arouse interest among followers of this false prophet? I think that is unlikely, since the overwhelming majority of COGwriter readers are not in this man's country and never heard of him before.

There is nothing in the account of Jeremiah and Hananiah that indicates that Jeremiah sought out this man to learn details about what God planned to do to Israel or Judah, nor that Jeremiah sought to spread this man's message. And if his first reply was an effort to have "common ground" with the audience that was there, remember, everyone there heard Hananiah's message. Jeremiah was just responding, in front of others, to what Hananiah was saying to Jeremiah.

The example of Jeremiah in Jeremiah 28:1-17 does not justify the action of Dr. Thiel in spreading the obscure prophecy in the posts I mentioned because those two events are not alike. What Bob Thiel did is not like what Jeremiah did. Jeremiah did not spread any false or demon-inspired messages to those who never heard it before. He responded to someone who confronted him face-to-face in front of a larger audience. Later he refuted him. But Bob Thiel did spread a prophecy that may be demon-inspired to thousands who never heard it before, and he never refuted it.

Let's look at another Bible passage Dr. Thiel used.

"For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you" (1 Corinthians 9:19-23).

In this passage, Paul describes the process of establishing "common ground" with those he teaches in order to establish credibility. He speaks to others from their point of view, in other words. Speak their language, speak of things they are familiar with.

Is this what Dr. Thiel does with the posts I mentioned about an obscure prophet from another country predicting one from their country would help to destroy the United States? I don't think so. Why? Because almost all of the COGwriter audience never heard of this obscure prophet before. There is no common ground here. Rather, to most people who read COGwriter, this man and his prophecy would sound very strange and unfamiliar. Dr. Thiel is not using this obscure prophet to speak to the Church of God from our point of view because we do not follow this man. Neither does he speak to Americans, Canadians, Britons, Australians, Frenchmen, Italians, Germans, etc. from their point of view because almost no one in these countries, and in the vast majority of the countries on this earth, follow this man or even heard of him.

So 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 does not remotely justify what Dr. Thiel has done, and does. What Dr. Thiel does in publicizing little-known non-biblical prophecies is completely different from the process Paul describes.

Of course, Dr. Thiel could claim that his websites reach many in this prophet's third-world country. COGwriter gets a lot of traffic, and the Internet being what it is, I have no doubt that at least a few people in almost every country on earth have viewed his blog. But I also have no doubt that the main audience of his blog is the Church of God, plus some additional viewers in the United States and other English-speaking nations. I simply do not believe that a significant number of COGwriter readers are followers of this prophet with whom there is a need to establish common ground. I would need to see reliable statistical proof before I would believe otherwise.

What about Catholic prophecies? There are millions of Catholics all over the world. Would reference to Catholic prophecies be a way of establishing common ground with Catholics?

I was raised Catholic, and most of my family members are Catholic, including every immediate family member. I attended four years of a Catholic high school with religion classes every school day. My sister became a nun. I never heard of these Catholic prophecies that Dr. Thiel spreads with his blog. In fact, I never heard of any Catholic prophecies, not in any religious training in grade school, not in four years of religious instruction in a Catholic high school, not in any sermon by a priest in Sunday mass I attended every week for about the first 20 years of my life, not from any family member. If any such prophecies were mentioned, I do not remember them, so they could not have made any impression. Actually, the first time I remember hearing of a Catholic prophecy was in the Church of God, in a sermon or sermonette given by someone in Worldwide while Mr. Armstrong was alive, long after I left the Catholic Church. Any idea that Catholics are generally familiar with these prophecies is a myth. They are not the focus of Catholic education.

Probably, Catholics who might read COGwriter will become familiar with these prophecies, which may be inspired by demons, from COGwriter and not from their own church! These prophecies are not a good way, in my opinion, to establish common ground with Catholics.

If you want to establish common ground with Catholics, Muslims, or Chinese, you can establish common ground with those doctrines they have that are true. You do not have to refer to their prophets. You can share with Catholics their understanding that Jesus Christ is the son of God who died to pay the penalty of our sins. You can share with Catholics that we are against so-called "gay marriage". You can share with Catholics that we are against abortion. You can share with Protestants, Muslims, and Jews that we are against images and physical idols used to represent what someone thinks God may look like as an "aid" to worship. That is the way to establish common ground. But you do not share in their sins. You do not partake with them of the occult, of demons, of the supernatural spirit world that inspires some of their prophecies. That is not the way to establish common ground.

Look at Paul's statement again in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. He said, "I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." But there are limits to how far Paul could go. Did he become a thief to win thieves? Did he become a fornicator to win fornicators? Did he become a murderer to win murderers? Did he visit pagan temples and share in the worship of idols to win those who did the same? Did he partake of sorcery, witchcraft, astrology, and mediums to win those who did those things? He did not.

Yes, we can establish common ground with those we teach, but only in things that are right, not things that are wrong. There are some things that are good and true in Catholic teachings, but reading of Catholic prophecies is not one of them, and we should not establish common ground that way.

Above all, we should set the right example in what we teach and how we teach it. We should set a right standard, and help people, in terminology they can understand, depending on their culture and background, to comprehend that standard, but we should not lower ourselves to wrong standards to share in their culture.

Here is a third passage in the Bible used by Dr. Thiel in his video:

"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, 'Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23).

And although I do not know if Dr. Thiel referred to this verse, I might add this, because it is similar: "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring' " (Acts 17:28).

This is simply an example of what Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, what I call finding common ground. But if you look closely, you will see that this is different from what Dr. Thiel does with his posts about an obscure prophet who was inspired (perhaps by a demon) to say that one from his country would help destroy the United States.

When Paul says he found an inscription to the UNKNOWN GOD, he is not quoting or referring to any prophecy. There is nothing here about going to an occult source, or supernatural source, or source in the spirit/demon world to know the future. There is no prophet involved who says, "I received a message from God about the future, and here is what will happen". Moreover, Paul is talking about something most of his audience was no doubt familiar with. They knew of that inscription in their own neighborhood and probably passed by it many times. But the vast majority of Dr. Thiel's audience never heard of that obscure prophet and his prophecy about the United States.

Then a bit later, Paul quotes a poet. Now in this case, perhaps not all of his audience was familiar with that poet. But it doesn't matter. The poet was a poet, not a prophet. There is no prediction of the future involved, no claims to supernatural, spirit world-inspired source of information. No occult, no dreams, no visions, no magic, no sorcery, no mediums, no wizards, no "prophets" - just a poet saying that we are God's offspring.

Once again, to make clear the comparison in these examples:

Quoting or referring to a prophecy about the future?

Paul, no. He refers to no prophecy or prediction about the future in mentioning an inscription to an unknown God, or mentioning that a poet said that we are God's offspring.

Dr. Thiel, yes. Dr. Thiel referred to or quoted a prediction about who would help destroy the United States in the future.

Spreading a possibly demon-inspired prophecy to those who have not heard it?

Paul, no. He spoke of no prophecies or prophets, and probably everyone in his audience knew about the inscription to the unknown God.

Dr. Thiel, yes. Dr. Thiel spread this obscure prophet's message to probably tens of thousands of Church of God members and others, mostly people living in English-speaking nations, who never heard of this prophet or his message before.

Once again, what Dr. Thiel does is totally different from what Paul did and cannot be justified by Paul's example and teaching.

I mentioned before that the first time I remember even hearing that there was such a thing as a "Catholic prophecy" was in Worldwide while Mr. Armstrong was alive, in a sermon I think given by a local minister.

I have heard or read Dr. Thiel mention that writers in Worldwide or maybe in LCG have quoted or referred to non-biblical prophecies. That may be true. I am not familiar with every case he may be referring to. If a minister or writer in Worldwide quoted or talked about a pagan prophecy for the purpose of trying to give details about the future that are not found in the Bible, it was just as wrong then as it is now for Dr. Thiel to do it. Using the examples of others doing what the Bible prohibits does not justify anything. You cannot say, "What I am doing is right because someone in Worldwide did that same thing, even though the Bible condemns it." That is false reasoning. We are to go by the Bible. And the Bible teaches us to avoid demon-inspired prophecies to learn about the future.

To be honest, I don't think I fully realized that it was wrong until Bob Thiel began doing it on a regular basis, but Dr. Thiel forced me to focus on the issue of whether it is right or wrong according to the Bible, and I now know it is wrong. To mention that others have occasionally done in the past what Dr. Thiel does on a frequent basis is no justification.

I said earlier I am against quoting or repeating teachings about visions, dreams, or supernatural revelations from the spirit world telling us what will happen in the future, with one exception, and I will explain that now.

If a pagan prophecy becomes well known, and is false according to the Bible, it is right for the Church of God to refute it, and in refuting it we would have to refer to it and possibly quote it. This is what was done in the Bible.

There is no need to refute something that is so obscure, no one knows about it. But suppose a so-called prophet says, "I received a message from God that Christ will return to the earth in exactly one year". Now suppose that prophet received a lot of publicity. Suppose it was a famous person who said it, and it was in the news. In that case, it would be right for the Church to show, from the Bible, that this prophecy is wrong. And in doing this, we would have to look at it, quote from it, and then refute it with scripture.

Dr. Thiel asks in his video if it is wrong to denounce false prophecies. No, it is not wrong.

But is that what Dr. Thiel has done in his posts about the prophet from a third-world country saying one of his countrymen would help destroy the United States? No, Dr. Thiel does not denounce that prophecy, he spreads it among thousands who never heard it before.


Why am I beating this one example to death? It is a clear example. It illustrates that not all of Dr. Thiel's writings about non-biblical prophecies fall into any category of approved behavior in the Bible using the examples of Jeremiah or Paul, which Dr. Thiel uses to support his practice of using non-biblical prophecies. Is this example unique? I don't think so, not in its essential elements. I no longer read such prophecies in COGwriter, not since I realized they are wrong. I have not read his books, but I have seen their covers (sometimes you can judge a book by its cover).

What are those elements?

1. The prophecy is from a source that claims supernatural inspiration, but is not from the Bible or from the Church of God, and therefore it may be inspired by demons.

2. It predicts the future and adds details about the future that the Bible does not give us.

3. The prophecy is largely unknown to COGwriter's audience.

4. Dr. Thiel does not refute the prophecy.

It is the combination of the above elements that makes the reading of and spreading of these prophecies a violation of the spirit and intent of God's instructions to avoid false prophets and the occult. With the above elements, such use of pagan prophecies means the potential spreading to Church of God members as well as others lies that Satan wants us to believe for our harm. That is why God warns us to avoid the occult.

Moreover, the refuting of false prophecies should not be used as an excuse to spread details that you do not refute. We have to be realistic. Suppose there is a pagan prophecy that few people ever heard of. Maybe one paragraph or a section of this prophecy gives five predictions. You quote the whole paragraph, then refute one small point in that paragraph according to the Bible, but leave the rest unchallenged. You are not refuting Satan's prophecies, you are spreading them. Instead, just teach the truth from the Bible about what the point is that you want to refute. You don't have to quote the prophecy and spread it to refute it - just teach the truth - that is refutation enough.

If there are a million false prophets that teach that Christ will return in one year, I don't have to quote ANY of them to refute all of them. All I have to do is teach from the Bible that the tribulation and Day of the Lord take three and a half years and precede the return of Christ and then show that the tribulation hasn't started yet. With just a few paragraphs and a few scriptures from the Bible, I can refute all those false prophecies without quoting from them, referring to them, or even knowing myself that they exist.

The truth from the Bible will refute every false prophecy that needs to be refuted.

Circulating a false prophecy among thousands or millions of people who never heard of it before, just to show that one small detail is wrong, leaving people to believe the rest of the prophecy, is not protecting others from deception - it is spreading deception - and the "refuting" argument becomes just an excuse.

Let me give a hypothetical example. Suppose there is a false prophecy that says that the anti-Christ will come from heaven in the year 2020 and make everyone keep the Sabbath. Should I quote it to refute it and to show that Satan will try to make people think Christ is the anti-Christ when He returns? I might think I am doing good if I quote it and explain it, but within that prophecy (this is hypothetical, I know of no prophecy that mentions 2020) would be the year 2020, which I could NOT refute. Might this not plant the idea in the minds of some Church of God members that Christ will return in 2020 because a demon says so, so it might be true? Might that be what Satan wants?

Can you see a subtle trap here?

Rather, I can refute this very effectively by showing that the true Christ commands us to keep the Sabbath, and I can prove the truth of the Bible and any truths about the anti-Christ from the Bible without mentioning any pagan prophecies at all. And those who are willing to believe the Bible will then be protected from Satan's deceptions.

I don't think I can out-smart Satan in figuring what parts of his teachings are safe to spread. I would rather trust God when God says, avoid Satan's prophecies about the future. I want to stay away from the edge of the cliff.

When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, Satan told Jesus to command that stones be made bread. Would it have been wrong for Jesus to make bread? He didn't have to eat it. He could just let it sit there, just to make a point to Satan. But He stayed away from the edge of the cliff. He did not follow any suggestion of Satan. He didn't try to figure a way to listen to Satan without sinning. He knew Satan would not suggest or give Him anything good, so he avoided it all (Matthew 4:1-4).

Pagan prophecies, and the occult in general, can be a temptation, a weakness, and an addiction for some in the Church of God. By spreading information about them, Dr. Thiel may be a cause of stumbling, a cause of sin, for those in the Church who may be struggling with this or may have a weakness for the occult. Some may have come out of a background of the occult and demonism, and he could be leading them back into the sin they came out of. He might quote a prophecy of a certain prophet that most people never heard about, just to refute it, and someone may be curious about the rest of the prophecy he didn't quote, look it up in the Internet, read more of it, then more, then go to other pagan prophets, and so on, with curiosity leading them to go farther and farther into demonism. For Dr. Thiel to push pagan prophecies to these people is like someone pushing an alcoholic drink into the hands of a recovering alcoholic.

"But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ" (1 Corinthians 8:12). Paul said this to those who put a temptation in front of those with weak consciences who thought it was wrong to eat meat sacrificed to an idol, even though it was not necessarily wrong. How much more would this apply to putting a temptation in front of a Church of God member to do something that truly is wrong in God's sight?

"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea" (Matthew 18:6).

If you want to know the future, you can look to the Bible or you can get known facts and try to estimate, based on logic, what will probably happen. But don't let your curiosity provoke you into going to demons to learn details about the future that God has not given us in the Bible. Curiosity can be a trap. Curiosity can tempt us to disobey God's instructions. Just as curiosity about sex does not justify unmarried teenagers experimenting with sex, so curiosity about the future or about demons does not justify listening to their predictions about the future. Curiosity is one of the temptations we have to learn to resist if we are to obey God. Curiosity can be one of Satan's devices.

The Bible tells us about the destruction of the United States. We don't need to know in advance what person Satan may use to do it or to know exactly when it will happen.

Don't go to Satan for information that God has not given us. You may pay a heavy price if you do.


Here is a related link on this subject. At the bottom of that post are several other links to posts on this subject. See my post titled, "How Should We Prepare to Resist Satan's Deceptions?", dated May 5, 2013, link:
http://ptgbook.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-should-we-prepare-to-resist-satans.html